Heat from tanker truck collapses steel reinforced overpass

[RandomGuy]

thermite would pull into liquid metal....



Shortly after this, the liquid iron flows into the mold around the rail gap.

Here the thermite is placed on top of the iron and held there by a crucible.

How is that possible for a vertical column?

[Nbadan]

Thermite used for military purposes...

Because of the difficulty in igniting standard iron-thermite, plus the fact that it burns with practically no flame and has a small radius of action, standard thermite is rarely used on its own as an incendiary composition. It is more usually employed with other ingredients added to enhance its incendiary effects.

Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 is as an incendiary, it will also weld metal surfaces together.

Wikipedia

[Extra Stout]

ofcourse you cant post link to the alleged photos

Have you even bothered to read these 9/11 threads on this forum?

How lazy are you exactly?

[The_Worlds_finest]

atleast you arent falling back to "you just hate america"

[Nbadan]

So the question becomes, were there traces of barium nitrate or other unexplainable chemical compounds found at the WTC site? Anyone?

[RandomGuy]

Thermite used for fluffy bunnies.

I see you are still dodging questions.

It would have taken months to wire the buildings with a five person crew working solid shifts, and hundreds of tons of thermite, IF it could be held to the columns, IF no one noticed the stuff sticking to every column, IF no one noticed this 5 person crew was everywhere in both buildings.

43 days per building means about 9 weeks per building, assuming our demolishers took weekends. Even evil has to BBQ eventually.

This would mean that for 5 months, NO ONE noticed these guys placing the TONS of explosives?

[RandomGuy]

So the question becomes, were there traces of barium nitrate or other unexplainable chemical compounds found at the WTC site? Anyone?

No you answer my questions first.

IF HUNDREDS OF TONS of thermite was required to bring down the buildings, then it should have been REALLY easy to find this stuff in large concentrations.

This still avoids all my physics questions by the way.

would simply point back to the amount of kinetic energy involved.

REMEMBER THIS IS JUST THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY/FORCE IN THE FIRST 11 METERS OF THE 400+ METER COLLAPSE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PE = m x g x h

Consider the mass of just the top floor of the building.

PE= m *9.8*413= 4073m

Mass is, by definition, simply a measurement of how much force a given amount of material will exert AT REST on an object that is resisting gravity.

SOOOO

The top floor would hit the ground with the same force as a 4073 story building, if that fall was unimpeded.

Now let's consider the fall of the top 30 stories.

They fell through the 3-5 floors of damaged sections and impacted the building below with some amount of force.

Let's call the distance accelerated as 3 floors and be generous. This is 11 meters.

Acceration of an object for 11 meters at 70% of gravity(dan's figure), would yeild an ending velocity of:

v^2= 2ad=2*9.8*.7*11=150=v^2, find the square root of 150, and bada bing, you get 12 meters per second

Subs ute this into the kinetic energy equation:
ke= 150*.5*m=ke=75m

This means the 30 foot section impacts the undamaged portion with the kinetic energy of SEVENTY FIVE TIMES ITS MASS.

Think about this for a moment.

The lower section of the building is designed to hold that 30 stories stationary plus a safety margin of 10 or 20%. So the maximum force that the underlying structure could apply to that falling section is 1.2 times its mass.

Further:
That falling section having as much kinetic energy as 75 times its mass means that it is effectively applying the same amount of force at the impact point that a 2270 story building would. if you held it stationary. (simple math: 30*75)
For the statement "the building would not have collapsed without explosives" implies that the building could have been TWENTY TWO TIMES TALLER THAN IT ACTUALLY WAS without collapsing.

STILL FURTHER

Your calculations seem to imply that the building structure below could absorb 30% of the falling energy.

IN JUST THE FIRST 11 METERS OF A 400 METER COLLAPSE THERE IS 62 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF FORCE REQUIRED TO COLLAPSE THE BUILDING.

Your assumption of about 1/3 the energy used to collapse the building is about 20 times what is reasonable. (1/62*20= 1/3) (more actually, if you consider the further distance and mass)

What happens, then when MORE mass is added AND accelerated?

Even if half the mass falls away or off to the side, there is still FAR more force and energy than would be needed to collapse the building WITHOUT ANY EXPLOSIVES.

[Nbadan]

I see you are still dodging questions.

It would have taken months to wire the buildings with a five person crew working solid shifts, and hundreds of tons of thermite, IF it could be held to the columns, IF no one noticed the stuff sticking to every column, IF no one noticed this 5 person crew was everywhere in both buildings.

43 days per building means about 9 weeks per building, assuming our demolishers took weekends. Even evil has to BBQ eventually.

This would mean that for 5 months, NO ONE noticed these guys placing the TONS of explosives?

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

[Nbadan]

No you answer my questions first.

IF HUNDREDS OF TONS of thermite was required to bring down the buildings, then it should have been REALLY easy to find this stuff in large concentrations.

This still avoids all my physics questions by the way.

would simply point back to the amount of kinetic energy involved.

REMEMBER THIS IS JUST THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY/FORCE IN THE FIRST 11 METERS OF THE 400+ METER COLLAPSE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PE = m x g x h

Consider the mass of just the top floor of the building.

PE= m *9.8*413= 4073m

Mass is, by definition, simply a measurement of how much force a given amount of material will exert AT REST on an object that is resisting gravity.

SOOOO

The top floor would hit the ground with the same force as a 4073 story building, if that fall was unimpeded.

Now let's consider the fall of the top 30 stories.

They fell through the 3-5 floors of damaged sections and impacted the building below with some amount of force.

Let's call the distance accelerated as 3 floors and be generous. This is 11 meters.

Acceration of an object for 11 meters at 70% of gravity(dan's figure), would yeild an ending velocity of:

v^2= 2ad=2*9.8*.7*11=150=v^2, find the square root of 150, and bada bing, you get 12 meters per second

Subs ute this into the kinetic energy equation:
ke= 150*.5*m=ke=75m

This means the 30 foot section impacts the undamaged portion with the kinetic energy of SEVENTY FIVE TIMES ITS MASS.

Think about this for a moment.

The lower section of the building is designed to hold that 30 stories stationary plus a safety margin of 10 or 20%. So the maximum force that the underlying structure could apply to that falling section is 1.2 times its mass.

Further:
That falling section having as much kinetic energy as 75 times its mass means that it is effectively applying the same amount of force at the impact point that a 2270 story building would. if you held it stationary. (simple math: 30*75)
For the statement "the building would not have collapsed without explosives" implies that the building could have been TWENTY TWO TIMES TALLER THAN IT ACTUALLY WAS without collapsing.

STILL FURTHER

Your calculations seem to imply that the building structure below could absorb 30% of the falling energy.

IN JUST THE FIRST 11 METERS OF A 400 METER COLLAPSE THERE IS 62 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF FORCE REQUIRED TO COLLAPSE THE BUILDING.

Your assumption of about 1/3 the energy used to collapse the building is about 20 times what is reasonable. (1/62*20= 1/3) (more actually, if you consider the further distance and mass)

What happens, then when MORE mass is added AND accelerated?

Even if half the mass falls away or off to the side, there is still FAR more force and energy than would be needed to collapse the building WITHOUT ANY EXPLOSIVES.

Free fall collapse explained

[The_Worlds_finest]

the burning question is more likely since the terrorist discovered a new way to bring down mighty buildings in such a proficient manner are all the controlled demolition experts going to take advantage of this cheap method...just replace the airplanes with a couple heavy explosions, and start a fire using jet fuel

[Nbadan]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

[Extra Stout]

the burning question is more likely since the terrorist discovered a new way to bring down mighty buildings in such a proficient manner are all the controlled demolition experts going to take advantage of this cheap method...just replace the airplanes with a couple heavy explosions, and start a fire using jet fuel

No, because the point of controlled demolitions is to bring down buildings safely, without damaging surrounding buildings. The WTC collapses were not very safe, they released a lot of toxic debris and dust, and chunks of the buildings ripped holes into other buildings.

The part where the buildings fall towards the earth is a result of a force inherent in matter called gravity.

[Extra Stout]

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

Or, you could fly a jet aircraft into those floors.

[RandomGuy]

As I've said before, you wouldn't have to wire the whole building, just key trusses on key floors.

But the explosion theory says that the underlying building fell at free fall speeds.

This is impossible unless you take out all the support on each sequential floor, making it NOT quite a "strategic" manuever.

Get your theories straight.

[Nbadan]

Worthwhile sites...

Critique of Official Collapse Theories of the Twin Towers

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html]

One of the NIST engineers, Ronald Hamburger, gave a talk last December "Conspiracy or Science: Why Did the Towers Fall?". Unfortunately there's no transcript available, but there's a critique here:

Conspiracy or science?. I find it interesting that this guy apparently didn't even know how many core columns there were! (47)

[RandomGuy]

Free fall collapse explained

I'm not clicking on any of your damn links until you read the NIST report.

[Phenomanul]

Thermite used for military purposes...

Because of the difficulty in igniting standard iron-thermite, plus the fact that it burns with practically no flame and has a small radius of action, standard thermite is rarely used on its own as an incendiary composition. It is more usually employed with other ingredients added to enhance its incendiary effects.

Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 is as an incendiary, it will also weld metal surfaces together.

Wikipedia

2.0% sulfur??? If that much sulfur had been involved people would have immediately died from breathing SO2 at ground zero. SO2 can be fatal at 500 ppm. Especially since you all claim that the thermite fires were still raging weeks after 9/11.

[Phenomanul]

I'm not clicking on any of your damn links until you read the NIST report.

That link stalled my computer....

[Extra Stout]

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

The videos show that once the "hinge" of remaining supports at the 80th floor gave out, the top portion of the building fell down into the rest of the building.

[Phenomanul]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

The concerns of your observation are only valid when the fulcrum is fixed. Clearly the fulcrum was also moving (down towards earth) because the gravitational force exceeded and superceded the angular momentum that was generated at the onset of rotation.

[Nbadan]

2.0% sulfur??? If that much sulfur had been involved people would have immediately died from breathing SO2 at ground zero. SO2 can be fatal at 500 ppm. Especially since you all claim that the thermite fires were still raging weeks after 9/11.

The FEMA-sponsored Building Performance Study of 2002 contains evidence of melted steel caused by sulfidation and oxidation. This is found in the "Limited Metallurgical Examination" written by Professor Jonathan Barnett. Liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown.

Virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA's volunteer investigators did manage to perform "limited metallurgical examination" of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study. Prior to the release of FEMA's report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.

The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.

[CavsSuperFan]

Maybe if Americans did not drive 10mpg SUV’s, we would not have so many tanker trucks on the road, driving at unsafe speeds, just to rush fuel to the local Exxon Station...

Just a thought...

[ChumpDumper]

Is so obvious that the black ops folks brought down the overpass in an attempt to discredit the truth movement. It's no coinicidence that it happened in a large media market about as far away from New York as possible.

[RandomGuy]

The tipping of the upper section of WTC 2, and even WTC 1, is a very interesting problem that needs to be addressed.

However, in terms of the relative magnitude of the rotational KE and the associated change in PE, the potential energy term predominates for tilt angles less than 25 deg. This is readily determined by inserting appropriate values for h and theta into the formula:

Initial Energy = 1/6Mh^2 (dtheta/dt)^2 + 1/2Mgh. cos(theta)

where h is the height of the upper tilting section, and theta is the tilt angle.

The first term is the rotational KE, the second term is the associated PE.

Many videos show that the upper section of WTC 2 was crushed as it collapsed. This loss of rigidity of the upper section effectively reduced h from its initial value of (30 x 3.7) or 111 meters, to something significantly smaller by the time the upper section had rotated 25° or so.

None of which addresses how much Kinetic energy was present in that falling mass that was applied as force to the underlying structure after a known distance of falling.

[RandomGuy]

The FEMA-sponsored Building Performance Study of 2002 contains evidence of melted steel caused by sulfidation and oxidation. This is found in the "Limited Metallurgical Examination" written by Professor Jonathan Barnett. Liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel.
No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown.

Virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA's volunteer investigators did manage to perform "limited metallurgical examination" of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study. Prior to the release of FEMA's report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.

The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.

Note:

Sheetrock is composed of gypsum.

General Gypsum Information. Chemical Formula: CaSO4·2(H2O)
18% sulphur by weight
http://webmineral.com/data/Gypsum.shtml


Is it surprising that sulphur was found?