Maybe Bowen really did kick Amare!!

[Burn531]

To me that looked like a normal basketball move.

[steveskg]

"Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays? When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

I read that article. I remember thinking this:

Bruce Bowen is not the only player in the league that gets paid to play physical defense ala Bruce Bowen... but who else... but Bruce Bowen has been accused of those certain tactics that other players would consider crossing the line, and thus not engage in. Sure it's only occurred 4-5 times... but has anyone else been accused of that AT ALL?

So it's all well and good injuries don't occur that often... that doesn't change the fact that he's playing "outside the lines."

Who else kicks players in the face?

[cly2tw]

Well, the evidence isn't sufficient to prove his intention to specifically kick or step on Amare's heel. Yet, given his reputation as someone who is willing to risk injury to the shooters by undercutting or gliding in, it's quite clear he was just doing his routine in this regard here. Just step close to the guy who is about to lift or just lifted for shooting let them feel the danger of potentially injure themselves, this may distract them enough to lower their accuracy on average. That's it.

PS: actually, it is clear he stretched out his right leg with his center of gravity full on his left leg, and pulled it right back after contact with Amare's. It's very like another scene I saw in game 1 in an in-game rewind. While Nash was driving by him for a layup, he just made a quick pull on Nash's arm and raised his hands into the air right after that to pretend innocence. Nash scored and refs either didn't see it or just didn't want to call it. (Well, Raja does this thing often too, but not the ones with legs and feet.) But the purpose of gaining so slight advantage by these "dirty" moves is consistent. It's just that dirty moves with your legs and feet are more dangerous to others' health.

Given his reputation, this evidence might warrant a fine for "irresponsibly dangerous moves" from the league, without judgment on intention.

[mikekim]

I read that article. I remember thinking this:

Bruce Bowen is not the only player in the league that gets paid to play physical defense ala Bruce Bowen... but who else... but Bruce Bowen has been accused of those certain tactics that other players would consider crossing the line, and thus not engage in. Sure it's only occurred 4-5 times... but has anyone else been accused of that AT ALL?

So it's all well and good injuries don't occur that often... that doesn't change the fact that he's playing "outside the lines."

Who else kicks players in the face?

Not every player in the league has been the runner-up for defensive player of the year for 3 straight years (has any perimeter defender ever done that?) or been a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA defensive team selection for 7 years (1st team the last 4 years)...

So obviously, not every player in the league plays defense like Bowen (and no, I don't mean dirty...)

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That is what people are ing about?

I can't ing wait for Saturday to hurry up and get here.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Wow, just wow. I can't believe you guys are ing and moaning over that.

[cly2tw]

Not every player in the league has been the runner-up for defensive player of the year for 3 straight years (has any perimeter defender ever done that?) or been a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA defensive team selection for 7 years (1st team the last 4 years)...

So obviously, not every player in the league plays defense like Bowen (and no, I don't mean dirty...)

Bowen is a great defensive player. But certain defensive tactics he practise to gain advantage could risk injuries to others. I'm sure he is trying to not hurt people at all, yet with his trying to stop right at the brink of causing injury, it's possible that accidents happen. Hey, Malone is a HOF, and nobody accuses him to intentionally injure DavidRob with his elbow.

[mikekim]

I've had this discussion with so many nba "fans" over the years that it's mind-numbing...and I simply don't want to even discuss it anymore...don't have the strength. The thick-headedness of some people, no matter how hard I try to explain, is unbelievable (and no, Steveskg, I'm not saying you're thick-headed, I haven't conversed with you long enough to figure that out...I'm just talking about the total people overall I've spoken with).

I even allow for that idea that Bruce is overly physical and may "cross the line" sometimes (which I, by the way, believe isn't the case....but i ALLOW for it, for the sake of discussion). But even then, you still can't say he's "dirty" because that implies a malicious intent. Bruce has no and never will have any "malicious intent." (note: if he does do anything out of anger with intent, as he did kicking Ray Allen while sort of scuffling, it will be when emotions get the best of him and he will apologize for it publicly, as he did...but that wasn't in the course of an actual play though, I might add)

Anyways, I probably won't post anymore in this thread. I'm just tired of trying to explain this...and I don't want to deal with the futility (unless of course, I reply out of courtesy to steveskg, depending on what he says of course).

[mikekim]

I'm sorry I'll post again..and then I'll stop...geez

What in' "defensive tactics" are those? Are you talking about the foot on the landing thing?? Have you been watching the in' NBA?? This has happened to other players in recent memory...in this same freakin 2007 NBA playoffs really. It happens quite often in fact (if not the actual landing but the danger of someone's foot being in the area of someone's landing occurs ALL the time...). Yet commentators, or fans, just let it slip right on by because it isn't Bruce Bowen...

And what is this I see about Karl Malone's elbow on DRob not being seen as being dirty?? Are you being sarcastic or what?

I'm done with this thread...I'm done. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm sure no one here is. It's just a ulative frustration that's built up about this topic.

[ambchang]

Bowen is a great defensive player. But certain defensive tactics he practise to gain advantage could risk injuries to others. I'm sure he is trying to not hurt people at all, yet with his trying to stop right at the brink of causing injury, it's possible that accidents happen. Hey, Malone is a HOF, and nobody accuses him to intentionally injure DavidRob with his elbow.

Try following Malone's career a little closer:
http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/Malone.danger.html
http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/200...test-hits.html
It is well known that Malone intentionally injured Zeke as a retaliation for
Zeke burning Stockton all game. How many times have Bowen sent someone to a plastic surgeon?

The defensive tactics that you continue to cite, what specifically are those? Getting too close to a shooter on a jump shot? Getting in the face of an offensive player? Those are all legal moves, and if they aren't, would have been called.
You continue to say how dirty Bowen is, and the fact is that he had a total of 1 ejection, 28 technicals and 8 flagrants throughout his career. Compare that to Raja Bell, who is 6 ejections, 50 techs, and10 flagrants, and you tell me who is dirty.
It is also hilarious how people like these came up with excuses of how he got away:
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_...be_and_br.html

Bowen gets away with it because the media loves his rags to riches story and it's easy to write about the hard working role player who becomes All Defense.

I am not sure if they know how stupid they sound, this is the NBA, not equestrian, almost ALL of the players had a rags to riches story. So I guess Ron Artest's dad used to be the CEO of Sprint, or Allen Iverson never had to live in a place flooded with sewage on rainy days.
Besides, it was the media who continues to say how dirty Bowen is, or else who wrote those articles? Ray Allen and Vince Carter are journalists now? If the media did not propagate these false allegations, who did? It got so out of hand, there are blogs like this (same source as above).
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_...k46/index.html
Michael Wilbon and Bob Ryan are excellent journalists? Those guys does nothing but yell at each other for 30 minutes every day, is that what pass for journalism?
This is an absolute joke.

[rascal]

Bowen has a history of throwing his legs out and undercutting players with dirty moves. Its part of his defensive package.

[SAGambler]

After seeing this video in slow motion it does appear that Bowen kicked Amare in the right leg. Not sure if it was intentional.

Would appear that Bowen was trying to pull up to keep from fouling...

Now anyone that can look at that video and say Bowen "kicked" at him, is blinder than a bat.

In fact it doesn't even look like their feet made contact at all.

You guys are searching for something that isn't there.

[FromWayDowntown]

What I've always found interesting about Bowen is the fact that the league has taken formal disciplinary action against him exactly 2 times since he's been with the Spurs: (1) a relatively small fine for the Szczerbiak incident in 2002; and (2) a $10,000 fine for his kick to Ray Allen's back in 2005. That's it. For a guy alleged to be out to injure players -- and generally, star players, since Bowen tends to draw defensive assignments on the league's elite -- the league sure doesn't have much to say about what he does. Either the league doesn't care that Bowen is acting "recklessly" around its biggest draws or the league has looked and decided that the complaints about Bowen are mostly a bunch of whining and, in any event, not worthy of disciplinary action.

I'd be interested for someone to compare Bowen's disciplinary history with the league against Raja Bell's -- you can even use Bruce's entire tenure with the Spurs against Bell's tenure just with the Suns. I have the feeling that one might not come out so well for Raja in comparison.

But Bowen is undoubtedly the far dirtier player; Bell is just wrongly persecuted and misunderstood. If only he played for the Spurs, he'd get away with all of his foolishness.

[jmard5]

Video is still inconclusive. I can't believe we already have TWO threads discussing this!

[Kermit]

What I've always found interesting about Bowen is the fact that the league has taken formal disciplinary action against him exactly 2 times since he's been with the Spurs: (1) a relatively small fine for the Szczerbiak incident in 2002; and (2) a $10,000 fine for his kick to Ray Allen's back in 2005. That's it. For a guy alleged to be out to injure players -- and generally, star players, since Bowen tends to draw defensive assignments on the league's elite -- the league sure doesn't have much to say about what he does. Either the league doesn't care that Bowen is acting "recklessly" around its biggest draws or the league has looked and decided that the complaints about Bowen are mostly a bunch of whining and, in any event, not worthy of disciplinary action.

I'd be interested for someone to compare Bowen's disciplinary history with the league against Raja Bell's -- you can even use Bruce's entire tenure with the Spurs against Bell's tenure just with the Suns. I have the feeling that one might not come out so well for Raja in comparison.

But Bowen is undoubtedly the far dirtier player; Bell is just wrongly persecuted and misunderstood. If only he played for the Spurs, he'd get away with all of his foolishness.

everything i've been trying to say in this thread, but with much more eloquence. nicely done.

[GrandeDavid]

If ANYTHING Bowen was careful to withdraw his foot when Amare came down to avoid Amare landing on it and twisting his ankle.

[GrandeDavid]

I think that in the NBA lots of physical altercations occur continuously and the overwhelming majority go unnoticed. I think that you guys are looking too hard at Bowen. That's pretty weak, sorry. Physical contact is part of the game, and this was not an overtly dirty play. I've seen worse. But I cannot deny Bowen kicked him, but also in knowing Bowen must assume he wouldn't do it with the intention to harm. If he did actually make contact with his foot, well, the refs missed it so we move on. Amare obviously scored. As long as nobody gets hurt or the ref whistles it, what's the point in making the debate? Its not going to change the outcome of the play.

[GrandeDavid]

Where is the video of Barbosa undercutting Parker? Perhaps wasn't 100% intentional but that is way more damning then whatever this video is trying to prove.

--timvp on timvp's account

Exactly! So stop whining about nothing, Suns fans. Seriously, this is ridiculous. Raja Bell pulls out every dirty trick imaginable but he gets a pass because he's wearing a Suns uniform? Barbosa undercuts Parker and could have hurt him badly, yet Suns fans want to zoom in on a seemingly harmless contact by Bowen?

Not ONCE have you heard Spurs players cry about officiating or otherwise do ANYTHING, Bowen included, to warrant criticism from one single Phoenix Suns fan.

I think you guys are just reaching and hot-headed because of all the smack flying on the boards. Guys, its all in fun!

Do you make such hypocritical claims simply because you feel that your team is en led to win its first championship? What the heck is this all about? Let's see the teams slug it out on the court and the best team will stand at the end. Meanwhile, let's put the film away and stop wasting time analyzing garbage.

[GrandeDavid]

If you knew anything about Barbosa you would know that he would never undercut anyone intentionally. He is one of the nicest players in the NBA.

I actually KNOW Leandro Barbosa rather informally, and I would have to agree. He's a very nice guy like virtually all Brazilian pro athletes.

But what you just said also applies to Bowen. Jack McCallum, who recently wrote that book "7 Seconds or Less" on the Suns was in a national radio interview on Tuesday and stated that, to somewhat paraphrase "Bruce Bowen is maybe the nicest, most hard working player in the NBA". Wow, that's mad props!

[GrandeDavid]

Bruce Bowen is one of the classiest guys in the NBA. What you (suns fans) say about Barbosa's character and demeanor can easily be said of Bruce's (as someone pointed out already).

It's just Bruce's job description is much different from Barbosa's and places him in situations where people can call him dirty...he gets paid to pay physical defense. Barbosa has no opportunity to be called dirty...he's there to make quick, slick moves to the hoop and drain threes.

I remember an article about Bruce's supposed dirtiness a while back in si.com (and Express-News?) after the Steve Francis incident, where an unnamed NBA GM pointed out a simple statistic to illustrate his point:

"Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays? When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

Bowen is put in the game to solely play tight defense. His rep of being "dirty" is totally unfounded and are exaggerations. Dirty implies a deliberate, malicious intent to harm. Bruce never has the intent to harm anyone...ever. And I will always stand by that. Bruce Bowen is one of the most professional, classiest, nicest guys in the NBA.

This should be emailed to every Suns fan on this board daily, several times daily.

[nkdlunch]

sun fans don't know what else to pick on. gimme a break.

It would be easier to prove Iraq has WMD than to prove that dumb theory.

[nkdlunch]

according to Sun fans, Bowen is expert at ninjitsu

[MadDog73]

Suns fans are the only ones I know who complain after beating the Spurs by 20 points...

[conversekid]

Yeah, but how often does Barbosa get into a situation where players are saying he's crossing a line? Maybe he gets a pass this time... and truthfully, Barbosa jumped before Parker.

But as for Bowen, some of his defensive tactics have been called into question and do ented before. So when he does something again that is su ious... it elicits more of a response. And he doesn't get the pass that a player like Barbosa might.

The people calling bowen into question are the pusses of the league - carter, allen. Funny how the princess of the league, Kobe Bryant, says Bruce is an excellent defender - the best he's ever gone against. The pusses are just mad that bowen gets in their grill and gives them fits. How can they get their averages and maintain their stats if bowen plays them hard?

[Soul_Patch]

I heard bruce bowen is solely responsible for global warming.



and um...he also kicks kittens.