If you wanted to start a franchise, who would you pick?

[bobbyjoe]

Um...that was like a year before they won the le.
And AJ's emergence as a PG had a lot to do with throwing it into a 7 foot scoring champ that was pretty much a guranteed dunk or layup....even without a PG throwing it into him.

AJ was a solid, solid PG and an excellent leader. One of the more underrated PG's of his day.

[whottt]

You discount those shooters but I say the Jazz are the proof...

When the Rockets had those great shooters, they whupped up on the Jazz...

When they didn't...the Jazz gave Hakeem the same kind of beatdowns Drob got annually...and kicked Hakeem's ass.

[whottt]

[QUOTE=bobbyjoe]Could you imagine Gervin trying to guard Kobe Bryant? I did see him play. Great scorer, very fun to watch, but didnt play or care about defense, and played on some really good teams that just consistently came up short. Lacked the killer instinct of a Kobe Bryant and not the floorgame that Kobe had.

How did Duncan take less than he could have in 2003? I am not familiar with what happened, but he's making $17 mill a yr this year. Was this the year the Spurs wanted to get Jason Kidd?

He didn't get the Max guranteed years IIRC...the seventh one...or if he did...he didn't get the max amount he could have.

[whottt]

And Gervin may not have played much D...but Kobe couldn't have stopped him..no one ever did. No one even came close


You ever look at Gervin's post season numbers? Every bit the freak his regular season numbers are...and his numbers are freakish...compared any 2 guard in history. Including Jordan.

A 50% career shooting multiple time scoring champion 2 guard.

That's a freak...it was a freak in 1980...it was a freak in 1960....it's a freak in 2007.

You don't get scoring champion 2 guards shooting over 50%...

ing Kobe struggled to shoot 40% a couple of times with Shaq drawing triple teams.

[bobbyjoe]

Hakeem's game declined from 1996 onwards. Thats why they lost to Utah in 97 and 98.

Who has once said the Rockets didnt have great shooters? Of course they did, arguably one of the most clutch collections ever assembled. But still, on balance a Smith, Maxwell, Elie, Horry cast just doesn't compare with:

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, etc
Kareem Abdul Jabbar, James Worthy, Byron Scott
etc
etc

You are ignoring that Houston didn't have a creator besides Hakeem (first le) even though they had some good spot up shooters. The Spurs of today for instance have 3 offensive creators in Manu, TP, and Tim. The Lakers had 2 with Magic and Kareem. The Bulls had 2 with MJ and Scottie. They had quality role players/shooters AND secondary offensive creators.

The 94 rockets and 99 spurs stand out as 2 of the recent champions who lacked this and were about as close to one man bands as you can get except that I think Duncan had more help in 99 because David Robinson was still a force, especially defensively.

You put a young Hakeem in a situation where he's playing alongside David Robinson and teams just wouldn't get anything whatsoever in the paint. Duncan was very blessed to land into that situation and that's hard to deny.

[bobbyjoe]

And Gervin may not have played much D...but Kobe couldn't have stopped him..no one ever did. No one even came close


You ever look at Gervin's post season numbers? Every bit the freak his regular season numbers are...and his numbers are freakish...compared any 2 guard in history. Including Jordan.

A 50% career shooting multiple time scoring champion 2 guard.

That's a freak...it was a freak in 1980...it was a freak in 1960....it's a freak in 2007.

You don't get scoring champion 2 guards shooting over 50%...

ing Kobe struggled to shoot 40% a couple of times with Shaq drawing triple teams.

Yes, Gervin was great, no doubt. Pure scorers and shooters are always fun to watch. He was about a pure a scorer as you could find.

Using Kobe's FG% in this argument though is deceiving because he shoots so many more 3 pointers than Ice did so you have to adjust for that because a 3 pter is more of a high yield, lower % shot.

The main issue though is the defense though. Not that Kobe is Bruce Bowen defensively, but he was just a far better factor on that end of the court than Ice, especially when motivated.

[johngateswhiteley]

The question was if you wanted to start a franchise, who would you take first.

I would take the guy who in his prime was the best player. That is Hakeem. On both ends of the court.

I would answer the same if you asked "Tim or Shaq". Shaq was more dominant than either Tim OR Hakeem in his prime.

If you're asking who you'd take first if you were the GM and could pick from any player, I think it goes without say that you are picking from the better players in their primes. Which in this case goes:

1) Shaq
2) Hakeem
3)Timmy

I think the way you are interpreting this question sounds like "which player was on the team which had the most success" which is a different question than who'd you'd pick if you were starting a team.

The one thing I do agree with you on is that Tim Duncan is playing GREAT basketball right now. I thought he played phenomenal last year in the playoffs as well against Dallas. As a fan of postplay going back to the Moses/Hakeem/Kareem days, it's beautiful to watch. He has an aura of dominance around him now which is very Hakeem-like and which reminds of his 99 run when he looked like a beast. I'm amazed that Duncan is as good defensively as he is this postseason given his age.

But I'd still place him 3rd behind Hakeem and O'Neal! I think for some reason the contributions of other Spurs like Parker/Manu/Bowen seem to be under the radar. Some act like this is Tim and a bunch of average players. It's certainly not.

typical NBA fan.

[whottt]

Yes, Gervin was great, no doubt. Pure scorers and shooters are always fun to watch. He was about a pure a scorer as you could find.

Using Kobe's FG% in this argument though is deceiving because he shoots so many more 3 pointers than Ice did so you have to adjust for that because a 3 pter is more of a high yield, lower % shot.

And Kobe has never shot over 50% from 2.

The main issue though is the defense though. Not that Kobe is Bruce Bowen defensively, but he was just a far better factor on that end of the court than Ice, especially when motivated.

Ehhh...if Kobe had played for Doug Moe he probably would not be known as a great defender...


George could block shots...he blocked over a shot per game his first 5 years in the NBA(and well over a block per game in the ABA), and was the NBA's all im leader in blocks by a 2 guard when he retird...stick that in your shooting guard and smoke it.

I am hardpressed to find a single thing Kobe did better than Ice.


Bottom line...Kobe plays in LA

He's done exactly crap on his own.

[bobbyjoe]

No, the simple fact is that Tim Led those teams to a championship.

And Hakeem played with a superstar in Drexler who was still avg 20 a game, and he had really good shooters and defenders in maxwell and horry, pure shooters in Cassell and Smith, and good help in Thorpe and Horry. Not to mention some clutch bench players.

Tim led the spurs to a le with washed up veterans at one time in 99, and then a bunch of rookies.

Tim also faced Shaquille Oneal in his Dominant era of 99-05. Stood down Garnett, And was the defensive anchor all his tenure.

If tim was living in the 90's there no question he'd be on the all defensive 1st team.

If Tim was playing Center at the same time Hakeem, David, Ewing, Alonzo, Shaq, and Dikembe were in the 90's, not only would he not have a single defensive 1st team but probably not even a 2nd team. No way is he on par with Hakeem, David, Alonzo, or Deke as a defender. Not a chance.

You put a poll up on this site as to who was a better defender out of Tim or David and it's not going to be close, I guarantee you that. No way would Tim ever beat out DRob for Def first team even if Hakeem, Mutombo, or Mourning weren't in the league.

BTW, I didnt know shooting 39% for your career qualified as really good (V. Maxwell). What oh what were the Spurs thinking when they traded this sharpshooting gem for $50,000 in cash?

[dg7md]

I'd take Shaq over Duncan, but not Hakeem over Duncan.

[Jimcs50]

Timmy is proven

As opposed to Hakeem?

[gaKNOW!blee]

I'd take Shaq over Duncan, but not Hakeem over Duncan.

is that Cameron in your sig?

[Warlord23]

It's a pretty close call, and you can't go wrong with either. I think Hakeem was ridiculously dominant in his championship runs, more so than Duncan. But I think Duncan has shown more consistency and a commitment to winning.

If Tim Duncan plays 70+ games, his team will be a 55-win contender, period. You can't say the same about Olajuwon.

1991-92: Hakeem played 70 games; Team record: 42 - 40
1989-90: Hakeem played 82 games; Team record: 41 - 41
1988-89: Hakeem played 82 games; Team record: 45 - 37
1987-88: Hakeem played 79 games; Team record: 46 - 36
1986-87: Hakeem played 75 games; Team record: 42 - 40

That's too many middle-of-the-road .500 seasons. The Rockets' '86 Finals appearance was the one highlight of the entire decade for Olajuwon. Olajuwon's legacy was decided by exactly 2 seasons in the middle 90s. Tim is the more consistent player, and it ain't close.

[DarrinS]

Tim's command of the English language

[gtownspur]

The best Guard Hakeem had the privelege of worrying about penetrating and creating during his run was John Starks and Vinny.


Tims has been Kobe, Kidd, Nash, Iverson, Marbury..and he still had his assignment in guarding Amare, Martin, Shaq, Garnett.

I'd say Tim Duncan did a a of a lotta Good on the defensive end, his teams have been at the top of the NBA in fewest opponent ppg.



IF TIM Duncan was in the 90's his team would have been the best in the league in DEfense and that alone would put him on all Nba Defensive 1st team.

[exstatic]

You put a young Hakeem in a situation where he's playing alongside David Robinson and teams just wouldn't get anything whatsoever in the paint. Duncan was very blessed to land into that situation and that's hard to deny.

So, if two seven footers is the answer, why did the Olajuwan/Sampson duo make only one Finals appearance? Hakeem had his partner.

[angel_luv]

Tim is younger.

[BUMP]

he still had his assignment in guarding Amare, Martin, Shaq, Garnett.

Amare is not a great center. he has few post moves, he cant back you down and score on you 1 on 1. he just feeds off Nash. thats a terrible argument. Martin is nowhere close to the centers Hakeem had to go up against and he is currently out of the league. WHAT A TALENT! and he's only matched up against Garnett once in 00-01, and the T-Wolves were a pathetic 8-seed.

Hakeem was easily the better player in his prime. he had to go through Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq to get those championships.

[ObiwanGinobili]

Timmy.,
the name says it all - FUNDAMENTAL basketball. excellent on both ends of ht court. also - I am building a team and I want ot build the right team: tim sets the tone on the court nad in the locker room. Theres not a stat for that - but it;s beyond important.

[SpursIndonesia]

It's a pretty close call, and you can't go wrong with either. I think Hakeem was ridiculously dominant in his championship runs, more so than Duncan. But I think Duncan has shown more consistency and a commitment to winning.

If Tim Duncan plays 70+ games, his team will be a 55-win contender, period. You can't say the same about Olajuwon.

1991-92: Hakeem played 70 games; Team record: 42 - 40
1989-90: Hakeem played 82 games; Team record: 41 - 41
1988-89: Hakeem played 82 games; Team record: 45 - 37
1987-88: Hakeem played 79 games; Team record: 46 - 36
1986-87: Hakeem played 75 games; Team record: 42 - 40

That's too many middle-of-the-road .500 seasons. The Rockets' '86 Finals appearance was the one highlight of the entire decade for Olajuwon. Olajuwon's legacy was decided by exactly 2 seasons in the middle 90s. Tim is the more consistent player, and it ain't close.

Good point. I always think that TD's more consistent while Hakeem had higher peak years. Did Hakeem play with not so great teammates those years ?

IMHO, TD got a rather weak supporting casts in 01-02 & 03-04. The Spurs still had a 50+ wins season those years.

[Bob Lanier]

[SpursIndonesia]

OTOH, to be frankly, if i draft Hakeem vs TD without foreseeing TD's great mental strength & coachability, i must say Hakeem (and Shaq to some extent) is a more interesting player to draft because of his (their) great physical attributes (Hakeem with guard like agility & Shaq with his sheer size+athleticism).

[Bob Lanier]

Next up on WhotttTalk: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Artis Gilmore, exploring why the soft, arrogant Alcindor was no match for the A-Train. Part 1 of 32.

[Don Quixote]

If were starting a franchise ...

PG: Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury
SG: J.R. Rider, Stephen Jackson
F: Sprewell, Antoine Walker, Artest
F: Vin Baker, Eddie Griffin
C: Jerome James, Calvin Booth, Erick Dampier

Now that would be a team! We would need extra security at the games, and I imagine the police will need to use a taser at least once before the game is over.

[whottt]

Next up on WhotttTalk: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Artis Gilmore, exploring why the soft, arrogant Alcindor was no match for the A-Train. Part 1 of 32.

How would you know? You were probably attending a memorial for Idi Amin while Hakeem was in his prime...or something.