Trade Parker While He Has Value

[ginobili fan]

Also you always fail to mention this.....Parker has the best player in the league alongside him which makes his life a whole lot easier.

WTF?
Tim helps tony to win les This is sure for 100000000% OK but it's not Tim who bring tony to the rim,it's not tim who helps him scoring mid-range shots,it's not Tim who boost tony's speed,it's not tim who doesn't get blocked when tony gives him a sweet pass,it's not tim who helped tony getting eva....
But yeah Tim is the reason tony has 2 rings.
AND That's why tony leds a team 3-1 in WCF

[aaronstampler]

.

Players like Parker, Manu and Bowen aren't close to be the best players at their position in the NBA, but it doesn't really matter. Winning is all that's remembered and those three players give the Spurs a damn good shot at winning night in and night out.

I disagree with you about Tony and Manu.

I think you can argue that Tony is somewhere between the 4th and 6th best PG in the NBA.

You have Nash, Kidd, and Williams at 1-2-3, but then you'd have to put Tony in that second tier along with Paul and Baron Davis. I can't really think of anyone else. He's definitely better than Billups at this point.

As for Manu, how many SGs would you seriously take over him? Remember, LeBron, T-Mac, and Pierce are all 3s. The PER numbers say it all. The only SGs you take over Manu are Kobe and Wade. I'd definitely take him over Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Michael Redd and Joe Johnson. None of those guys can play worth a lick in a big game and have no clue how to make their teammates better.

[ginobili fan]

I Would Take Manu Over Kobe Or Wade Because Kobe And Wade Would Be Worthless With The Spurs.

[timvp]

The PER numbers say it all.

The PER numbers don't say it all. Instead of taking value away from players not able to play major minutes (due to foul trouble, fatigue, etc.), it gives them much more value. Manu is a great player but PER assumes that he'd play the same way if he were on a team where he had to play closer to 45 minutes a game instead of closer to 30.

Per minute, Manu is one of the best players in the league. Factoring in that Manu can't play as much as other premiere shooting guards in the league, players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, McGrady, Pierce and Carmelo all have to come into the picture.

And yes, all six of those players could play the same position Ginobili plays for the Spurs (2 on offense, 3 on defense most nights).

That said, Manu fits perfectly on the Spurs. They can limit his minutes, keep him fresh and have the shooters and post threat needed to space the floor for him.

[aaronstampler]

1. I think Manu can play 35 mins a game no problem.
2. I believe PER is based on 40 mins a game, not 48.
3. I think playing so many minutes hurts most of these star players rather than helps them. If AI, LeBron, Wade etc. played 36 minutes instead of 40+, they'd probably value their possessions more and not be prone to the mental and physical fatigue that leads to them chucking so many bad shots. One thing I like a lot about Pop and dislike about other coaches is that most of the others are too insecure to rest their stars for too long, even though anything over 40 minutes, you're going to get some diminishing returns from these guys, no matter how well conditioned they are.

It's really the same thing as the Cal Ripken argument. He really would've been a lot better player if he didn't give a about some stupid longevity record and played only 152 games a year instead of 162.

[ducks]

manu plays 40 minutes a night he can not play the next night
manu is good when attacking
when manu becomes more of a jumpshooter is when he is not as good
I do not want manu to play 40 minutes a night
why he would not play as well if he plays 40 minutes a night
if he plays 25-30 minutes a night he plays much better
because of the way he plays

[ClingingMars]

Isn't our plan to let Deron Williams score as much as he wants, but to make sure that his supporting cast gets absolutely nothing (with the exception of Boozer)?

-Mars

[ducks]

Per 48 Minutes NOT 40

[timvp]

1. I think Manu can play 35 mins a game no problem.

He never has on any level but I guess anything is possible.

2. I believe PER is based on 40 mins a game, not 48.

It doesn't matter how many minutes it's multiplied out to. It's basically a per minute calculation.

3. I think playing so many minutes hurts most of these star players rather than helps them. If AI, LeBron, Wade etc. played 36 minutes instead of 40+, they'd probably value their possessions more and not be prone to the mental and physical fatigue that leads to them chucking so many bad shots.

True. Which is why it's difficult comparing Manu to players who are forced to play 10+ more minutes per game using a formula that only tracks per minute production.

[ducks]

I forsee a 5 page thread

it is 4 now

[aaronstampler]

True. Which is why it's difficult comparing Manu to players who are forced to play 10+ more minutes per game using a formula that only tracks per minute production.

They're not "forced" into anything. They ask for the abuse because they're too stupid to know any better. If anything, they're the ones doing the forcing.

[wildbill2u]

Can anyone deny that Parker has IMPROVED his game every year? He's still to reach his limit on talent.

[smeagol]

I forsee a 5 page thread

We are getting there . . .

[2centsworth]

I didn't take the time to read this, but all I know is that Parker and Manu are my favorite spurs and if they are ever traded I would be pissed. Guys are going to wind up with 3-5 rings a piece and we're talking about trading them.

FREAKIN NO!!!

[Marcus Bryant]

man, I remember the days when I thought about trading anyone in sight so that the Spurs could win a championship. That's no longer an issue.

Spurs fans don't know what they have.

[smeagol]

it is 4 now

I was also going to say the thread would turn out to be a Manu vs Tony.

People would've said I'm psychic (not really )

[td4mvp21]

First of all, Deron Williams is playing out of his mind. The Spurs defense has been pretty good and he still scores. You're not going to see that too often. He's even scored on Bowen. Parker is a good defensive player by himself; he is not great but he is pretty good. Second of all, I don't think people realize what Parker means to this team. He and Tim are best buds and have great chemistry together, as he does with everyone else on the team. Without Parker, the Spurs do not play well. When he has a bad game, more than often the Spurs lose. Like Timvp pointed out a while back, the Spurs have only lost like 1 game when Parker scores 25+ points in the playoffs. He still averages 5 assists with 20 ppg. Who else is there to replace him? He is an almost near perfect fit for the Spurs.

[Nikos]

You have to penalize Manu for not actually playing 35+. It's nice that he is ridiculously good in 30mpg, but thats like 7-8 mpg less than the average all star, minutes that he should be on the floor making a difference offensively and defensively. His PER would definitely shrink if he had to play 35-36mpg. How much? Who knows, but the PER does show that he is underrated if you compare him to guys who probably have a PER of 16-19 but just play a huge amount of minutes, get a large amount of shots while playing average defense....

I don't know if its fair to say Manu is better than Michael Redd or Ray Allen because those guys have to shoulder a lot of their teams offense, and they play a huge amount of minutes. Same for guys like Pierce, Carmelo, and Iverson.

Manu isn't really better than any of those guys, he might be on par when they are having 'OFF' years, but you can't say for certain he is the superior player. Maybe a more efficient 2nd/3rd gun, but that doesn't neccesarily mean he is the superior player.

[Spurminator]

You can't trade players in the middle of the Playoffs.

[/thread]

[exstatic]

When Chauncey Billups was 25, he was an unqualified BUST. When Gary Payton was 25, Seattle was shopping him because he had no jumper. You don't give up on a 25 YO PG because he's not everything you want him to be, yet.

[timvp]

They're not "forced" into anything. They ask for the abuse because they're too stupid to know any better. If anything, they're the ones doing the forcing.

So players control how many minutes they play?

Interesting.

[timvp]

You have to penalize Manu for not actually playing 35+. It's nice that he is ridiculously good in 30mpg, but thats like 7-8 mpg less than the average all star, minutes that he should be on the floor making a difference offensively and defensively. His PER would definitely shrink if he had to play 35-36mpg. How much? Who knows, but the PER does show that he is underrated if you compare him to guys who probably have a PER of 16-19 but just play a huge amount of minutes, get a large amount of shots while playing average defense....

I don't know if its fair to say Manu is better than Michael Redd or Ray Allen because those guys have to shoulder a lot of their teams offense, and they play a huge amount of minutes. Same for guys like Pierce, Carmelo, and Iverson.

Manu isn't really better than any of those guys, he might be on par when they are having 'OFF' years, but you can't say for certain he is the superior player. Maybe a more efficient 2nd/3rd gun, but that doesn't neccesarily mean he is the superior player.

Well said.

But given that, when Manu is on, there isn't a swingman I'd want in the league more than Manu when it comes to winning time.

[smeagol]

No offense, but whoever thinks Parker should be traded is an idiot.

[exstatic]

They're not "forced" into anything. They ask for the abuse because they're too stupid to know any better. If anything, they're the ones doing the forcing.

If Kobe played 27.5 minutes instead of 40.8, the Lakers wouldn't make the playoffs. That's "forced" by cir stance.

[Nikos]

To be honest I don't think Parker is going to improve much in terms of the regular season. He is already an all star caliber PG who has some room for improvement. His defense is pretty good. The only knock on him is he isn't a spectacular play maker in terms of creating for other teamattes -- some of that is the system, some of that is simply his own style. The only thing I want from him is to be more lucky in the playoffs. So far he hasn't been very good in most of his NBA playoff appearences. In all of them he has had some spectacular games, but he has also had some horrible ones in every playoff as well. I would like to see him breakout in the playoffs more instead of just playing very good on many nights and poor on others. He is capable of more offensive productiveness in the playoffs, and I hope to see it from him for the rest of this playoffs, and in the future.

For now I will call him unlucky in the playoffs. In the regular season he has been excellent the past two seasons, and has also been very good in 03-05. No sense in trading him.