Nah, businesses would use more rail and barge to transport materials in bulk.
TPark, you DO understand that there will be a way to get where you are going WITHOUT paying the toll, correct?
If you do not wish to pay said toll, simply stay on the feeder road.
Im not so sure why it is so hard for people to understand this, there is going to be a free route for people to take, if people want to pay let them!
I will gladly pay for the 281 Toll road.
I am a believer of toll roads.....
last month I went to Houston International Airport via IH 10 to 610 N to 45 N @ 1800. from the time I hit Katy, it took 75 minutes to get to the airport.
last week I made the same trip except this time I took the Beltway.......
22 minutes and only cost bout 3 bucks.......
need I say more...
Just to clear things up the lanes that are currently free to drive will remain free to drive (although they will be rebuilt and moved from the current configuration) even once the toll roads are built.
So, when all is said and done you will have the option to either drive for free or volunteer your own money and use the toll lanes.
And fyi, the SA Toll Party. Their leader Terri Hall who just moved to Bulverde/Spring Branch 3 years ago from California who is a stay at home mother who home schools her children.
She helps spread mistruths and exaggerates everything. That woman tries to speak for all of San Antonio when she's only lived here 3 years and hardly ever has to drive 281 or 1604.
Last edited by TheWriter; 06-30-2007 at 09:18 PM.
exactly
no reason not to support toll roads.
the only people who oppose toll roads are those who oppose development
guess what folx,
SA is not a small city, it will never be a small city again, and there is nothing you can do to change that
DEAL WITH IT
Tolls or Trolls?????At least I know the back roads of S.A.
listen to this guy tpark, he knows what hes talking about
on this issue and immigration- tpark is a voice of reason
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.
You guys still don't get it. The tolls are not a way to raise money to build the roads... they are a way to reduce congestion. You can either 1) stay on the free road where it is packed or 2) voluntarily choose to pay a small fee to get where you want faster.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
The reason being not all stretches of toll road have an acompanying feeder. Maybe ya'll are just lucky in SA...
The only legit bicker is that the toll road movement is blatantly an appendage of the movement that is dissolving our soveriegnity, which has been voiced by a few of us in this very thread.
What Scott, or no one else seems to understand is if the foreign-owned company your willingly giving your roads too defaults on it's toll-road construction loans, it's the tax-payer who is gonna get stuck with the bill, with no funding to pay for it, and studies have shown that it will be difficult if not impossible to meet these long-term obligations with $3.00 gas because people won't use the toll as much. So there is a possibility that they could use tax money to pay for these roads and you would still have to pay a toll to use them. How ed up is that? The tax-payers take all the risks and Perry and his lobbyists laugh all the way to the bank.
Also, these toll-roads will compete for scarce resources like concrete, engineers, right-of-ways, and such, driving the prices for non-toll roads higher too. It will become a self-perpetuating cycle of run-away road construction and maintenance costs.
Future expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?
Finally, TX's own funded studies have shown that all we have to do is index the gas tax to avoid toll roads altogether, a far cheaper costs for average drivers than tolls.
i dont care how they do it.
taxes, tolls, whatever
the traffic congestion needs to be eased
What is this foreign-owned company nonsense? The Alamo RMA will own and operate the toll roads not any foreign company.
www.alamorma.org
I dont give a if its foreign owned companies (which I seriously doubt), or if its good ol' H B Zachary. Get the done ASAP.
, Ill wear a turban to make the companies feel like they are working at home!
when?, anywhere has building more roads ever been a long term solution to traffic problems?
that way youre being taxed on the gas you use, the car you bought, your registration, your inspection, insurance, the roads youre driving on, and the roads youre driving onFuture expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?
makes people feel wealthy
Cool ... that's all I needed to know.
God I hope you are kidding, because that is hilarious.
So basically what you are saying is... that you still don't get it.
Now we've gone from the false "but we already paid for the roads!" argument to the "it's a foreign company!" argument. Where are these studies that show a toll won't be able to pay off the original cost of construction if gas is $3/gallon? People will continue to use automobilies, regardless of what they are powered by, and thus the demand for use of tolls is independent of the demand for gasoline. The US and the rest of the world have already begun to shift away from conventional gasoline, and that trend is unlikely to stop so long as gasoline prices are high. Unless we go to flying cars and everyone decides they don't want to live on the northside anymore, demand for use of the toll road won't be an issue.
It doesn't matter if it a foreign company or a domestic one, if that company defaults on it's loan, then someone else will have to pick up the tab. Congrats on your "duh!" moment of the day, Dan. It doesn't matter if they are based in Spain or in San Antonio - it all works out the same.
Um... ANY roads will compete for scarce resources, regardless of how they are paid for. Engineers and concrete won't suddenly be in more supply if the government announces they will pay for the roads with some indexed gas tax. The self-perpetuating cycle is a product of your own complaining nature.Also, these toll-roads will compete for scarce resources like concrete, engineers, right-of-ways, and such, driving the prices for non-toll roads higher too. It will become a self-perpetuating cycle of run-away road construction and maintenance costs.
On another note, private industry have proved TIME AND TIME AGAIN far more efficient in reducing the costs of... well, anything. Government en ies are the most inefficient organizations at construction because they have absolutely no incentive to reduce costs. A cost overrun of 50% or a timeline slipping by 2 years at a government agency results in no firings, just another check being sent from the state office. The government paying for the roads will increase the general costs of roads much more than a private company entering the market place.
Any road that is currently "free" (nothing none of them are free, you just have to pay per use) SHOULD NOT be turned into a toll road. There is one decent argument you have. Doing that forces consumers who have made previous economic decisions (where to live, for example) into a higher level of expenditure. Smart toll-road planning leaves free lanes and provides toll lanes for those people who value getting where they want to go.Future expansion plans will make existing free roadways, like Wurz. Parkway, toll roads. Why should we have to pay for roads that are already paid for with tax money?
Indexing the gas tax is one way to fund roads... you are still paying for it exactly the same. Whether you pay for it when you get on a toll ramp (which you have an OPTION not to do) or you pay for it with every gallon you put in your tank of gas, you are still paying for it! What are these "far cheaper costs"? Engineers, asphalt and concrete aren't going to get cheaper because you index the gas tax either. The cost is the same. Indexing backers like yourself also like to point out that "we can just index the gas tax, we don't have to raise it..." - well you can't raise MORE money by leaving the tax the SAME! They aren't going to index it downward!Finally, TX's own funded studies have shown that all we have to do is index the gas tax to avoid toll roads altogether, a far cheaper costs for average drivers than tolls.
But, as I've repeated, the tolls aren't meant to find a way to pay for the road. They accomplish that, but they also are a means of reducing traffic flow. The equilibrium price of the toll should be where the quan y of use on the toll road leaves a healthy flow of traffic as an alternative to sitting in a parking lot (like 1604 is today). Which leads me to...
Building more free roads has NEVER proven a long term solution. Economics 101, so long as a public good is "free" to use, it will be subject to overcrowding, or in other words, the equilibrium quan y exchanged will be less than the socially optimal quan y exchanged. (This problem remains when ALL roads are tolled at the same rate).
The idea of toll is to provide choice. You are welcome to sit in traffic all day, just like you do now. No one will take that choice away from you. However, if you want to pay just a small fee, you can skip all the traffic.
That small fee discourages use from some buyers, which is precisely how traffic on the toll roads remains managable and presents a value to the potential consumer. If the toll roads are too cheap, that is if the value they provide is greater than the toll, then they will be overcrowded and they've failed. If the toll is too expensive, then the road will be undercrowded and someone has paid to construct a useless road. This cannot take place in an "all-free" road environment.
As for your question "when", just look at any major city that has supplemented free roads with toll roads. Dallas is a great example. No transportation solution is "long term" however, because of population growth. Even New York city's subway system (which I'm sure mass transit is what you are getting at) is subject to overcrowding because the use of it keeps growing. Toll roads are not a permanent solution, but there isn't one. The long term solution is a phased one. You start with toll roads in the outer reaches (which also have the effect of reducing sprawl as the perceived cost of living in the suburbs increases). Then you phase in mass transit solutions in the inner areas of the city, eventually reaching the outer. Again, see Dallas. Dallas' metro is over 3x larger than San Antonio's however.
Good post and thank you for pointing out that Dan knows absolutely nothing about the construction business.
Dan, you do understand that when a company decides to do any job, they must get insurance on said job first. Meaning, the insurance company flips the bill if the company goes under.
Furthermore, most of the funding for this job is coming from the two companies themselves.
Learn your facts Dan.
I am a stay at home mom who lives off of Borgfeld road and I use 281 all the time. Everytime I am stuck in traffic on 281 North of 1604 I think of how much I would love to have a toll road. Many people out here will choose the convenience of the toll which in turn will reduce the congestion on the access roads for those who choose not to use it.
Talk about painting with a broad brush.
I used to be against toll roads, but having lived in Dallas for two years I've come to appreciate the convenience. That's what you're paying for - convenience.
I hate the idea of the TTC and of Cintra owning it, it's total bull and if there was a way for it to be done I'd love to see Perry booted out of office, he's whoring out the state of Texas for some backroom deal.
North American Union is also a farce. If you think neocons are all for it, then explain why the illegal immigration reform/amnesty got shot down for good this week. It's because conservatives everywhere made it known that if it passed, everyone in D.C. would be held accountable and be out of office the next time they were up for election.
It doesn't really matter which party it is, the power players don't feel accountable to the American public. I'm not sure what the solution is but those s in D.C. no longer represent the people that elect them.
And the light rail system would be a godsend here in the state of Texas, but no one with a ing clue or the balls to lead the charge for it is anywhere near the leadership of this state (on either side of the aisle).
BTW, lol @ Dan trying to tie gas prices and tolls together on this. You do realize that by taking toll roads, paying your $1.25 or whatever, and turning a two hour parking lot commute into a 30 minute jaunt home, you just covered your tolls with your savings in fuel burned, right?
Last edited by Aggie Hoopsfan; 07-01-2007 at 12:44 PM.
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