Spurs fans consider Elson to be a shot blocker. And who is to say that Butler can't become a much better shot blocker than Elson?
Two games is not enough of a sample size to determine whether someone is a shot blocker. If you want to think that Scola is a better shot blocker than Butler, I guess that is your right.
Last year wasn't 2005-06. I haven't seen anyone say Butler wasn't fat while on the Knicks. Read what I was referencing that you quoted.
Why are people looking at the stats for Jackie Butler when he has had no real opportunity to display the full array of his talents?
Did anyone think he was a capable passer with decent floor vision before this summer league? Well, he is...
Did anyone think he had the capability to hit a 15ft shot? Well, he can....
I'm not saying that Jackie Butler is going to be the GOAT, but give the Spurs FO enough opportunity to evaluate him before trading him off for CRAP to another team....
If Butler showed anything at all in practice last year, the Spurs would have given him a chance to play. Werent the SPurs unhappy with Oberto's play and gave the starting job to Elson? Elsons play wasnt much better either. Woudnt this have been a good time to give Butler some minutes if he had been good in practice? Aparently he showed them little to nothing, because the spurs FO never even attempted to give him PT during this periood. This tells me that Butler was never an option for the FO and probably will never be. With Horry, Elson, Oberto, Bonner, Id doubt you will ever see Butler this year at all if he stays.
Impressed with his summer league stats? he is foul prone and in any normal game would have to be taken out fast. I dont have the stats in front, but isnt he averageing 6 fouls a game? or is it more? How many missed dunks too? How many missed roatations? You think this guy is gonna break the roatation? give me a break!!
SO he has a break out game with points and rebounds, wow!! I wonder how many other centers have had big games in summer leagues in the past..ex: Greg Anderson. It was just one game and im still not impressed. If you ever want even a chance at Scola or some free agents, were gonna need room. Someone has to go. Butler? Beno?
Why keep this guy on the practice squad all year with the Brazilian coming next year or even scola? Obviously the FO dont want him and or we woudnt have gotton splintter or whatever his name is.
In other news, Wiliams looks horrible, man, whats up with this kid? White looks decent, but still a little raw. My God Watson is one of a ball hogger. Not impressed with anything but whites dunks. Hers hoping to see some action soon in getting rid of some players and bringing some in.
Yoda
Do or do not....there is no try
For me, elsons D rotations were horrible for a long time, but got better as came along;however, hisD in the playoffs were horrible.
Elson is utter crap....anyone who thinks otherwise is insane.
The fact that he can run the fastbreak is negated by the fact that he can't finish.
The fact that he's tall and long is negated by the fact that he's so unbelievably skinny.
The fact that he has the ability to be a solid help-side defender is negated by the fact that he's not smart enough to make the defensive rotation.
Why people are still sold on Elson is beyond me....especially when you have the opportunity to give a young guy with considerable upside and an NBA-ready offensive game to this point is beyond me.
Miami and Golden State have both shown how to guard Dirk. You don't put a big man on him. How often didn't you see Zo or Biedrins on Dirk?
You have to put players like Posey, Haslem, SJax, Barnes or Pietrus on him. Basically just smaller players who are as quick and have the muscle to keep him out of the paint and off the boards. Dirk is death if you put a tall player or a player who can't keep him from getting offensive rebounds on him.
Somehow turning Barry into Posey would be ideal right about now.
You forget Devin
Butler was busy losing 25lbs and adjusting his game to fit the system...not to mention getting used to playing at 25lbs lighter. THAT is why he didn't get an opportunity last year.
Fabricio Oberto didn't get an opportunity in his first year b/c he didn't "show anything", but based on what you've seen this year wouldn't you say he's arguably a better option/compliment alongside Tim Duncan than the guys he couldn't get in front of?
Butler will have to continue his solid play in the Summer League, show his eagerness to learn and improve in this system during training camp, and keep working on his body.
If he does those things, he offers more than Elson offensively, defensively, and on the boards.
If Spurs fans consider Elson a good shotblocker then they're mistaken. He was historically worse than both Nesterovich and Mohammed (didn't check Mohammad's miniscule stats for this season). In spite of what might lead people to believe he could be a good shotblocker, such as his length, quickness and ability to jump, he's never put it together. He's marginal at best.
So I wouldn't be surprised if Butler eventually was better, but to me the degree of improvement to go from better than Elson to much better than Elson (and to being a good shotblocker) is a different level of advancement (not trying to sound like Marbury or anything)
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I'm not saying Scola is a good shotblocker, and or that he's better than Butler, I'm just saying he does get blocks on occasion. His euroleague blocks per 40 in 06 was only 1.1. His 07 numbers much worse, barely 0.6/40. And of course two games is too small a sample size, I was using it compared to your Mourning stat.
To me, the 25 games Butler ended his season with when he was getting "Play the young guys" minutes and played 25 of the last 26 games, is more telling than his early season "Play him some games, play him more in blowouts in other games" minutes that he got when he received sporadic minutes and gameplay.
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edit:
A little bit of trivia: Horrible shot blocker Luis Scola in the euroleague had a better 'blocks per 40 minutes' than Tiago Splitter (both in 07 and 06), and was about equal with Ian Mahinmi.
Last edited by objective; 07-10-2007 at 03:41 PM.
I'm just wondering:
we know that the Spurs haven't been very happy with Butler.
he showed up out of shape last year (one of the absolute no-nos when playing for Pop I would assume), they didn't like his progress, we heard stories of some of the veterans kicking his ass (Finley) or at least impatient rebuke him (Tim), he almost didn't play, instead of a not exactly outstanding season of Elson, he never seemed to be happy to be with this team and prfered to watch the dancers instead of listen to Pop. he was rumored to have been on the block last dead line.
his salary isn't huge, but it is what will likely lift the Spurs over the lux tax threshold.
and some argue about his upside, or his role on this roster. Butler is another Beno story, hopefully with the difference, that it doesn't take 3 seasons to learn that some players just arn't Spurs material, even if they are more talented than other players on the roster.
Butler will never play a significant role with this team. he might flourish somewhere else, but not in SA.
it's absolutly senseless to argue if he or Elson is more important for the team, because it's not a question of talent.
If Beno Udrih was able to actually hit shots and not turn the ball over every other posession, he'd be the #2 PG on this team.
Even if all of the Spurs' fears are realized and Butler really doesn't care all that much and doesn't pay attention, and won't stay in shape....if he gets the opportunity and produces on the court, he'll be in the rotation.
This notion that the Spurs don't play their talented players if they're not "good guys" is nonsense.
Having said that, I don't think Butler is the lazy fatass that you paint him to be. Jackie has worked hard to shed alot of weight and get in playing shape. He might not be incredibly motivated or happy to sit on the bench and ride the pine while the likes of Francisco Elson are playing 20MPG.
He DOES need to learn that he was given an extraordinary opportunity to play quick minutes for Larry Brown (who was just using him to prove a point to his other veteran centers) and then to join a championship-calibur team. But, he's FREAKING 22 YEARS OLD....cut the kid a break.
one positive is that the Spurs have a good situation to where they could move Butler ahead of Elson in the rotation and have it not really affect the play of Elson, who was used to being an emergency guy in Denver where his minutes would be in flux. I'm not saying he'd be happy about it, but he'd be a pro about it.
wanna stop Dirk? bring Scola and get rid of Butler and Beno...
That was stupid. You wanna stop dirk, get Matrix on your team. He got snubbed on the all defense team!
how come da suns fan's post looks like that on the left side?
Because his account has been deleted.
Elson's defensive rotations and lapses have been chronic. His overall play has been inconsistent. However, no other big runs the floor like he does. Provided he gets a good pass, he CAN finish. He's also got a nice 12-15 ft jumper in his arsenal. Sure he didn't hold his own during the playoffs, but he CAN contribute more. He should rebound the ball better and he needs to hold his position and be more of a consistent force.
Based upon his past contributions in Nugget land, I'd say he was about as inconsistent as he's been throughout his career. If he gets beat out by Butler, as many of you think, then he should be traded immediately. Still, I want to see what or if he improves next season before throwing him out.
As for Butler, he is intriguing. This summer and impending training camp may be his only opportunity to prove he belongs on this team. However if the right deal comes along, I'm sure the Spurs would ship him out.
Why would there be a either/or argument regarding Butler and Mahinmi? Bruno said they were totally different players which says to me, they belong on the floor at the same time.
Sucks that Ian tore that muscle because it would have been interesting to see the two on the floor at the same time.
I would hate to lose Butler for a second rounder even if it is going to be challenging to find him minutes this season.
If a taker can be found for Barry, Beno or Elson, that is who you move.
If you go back and look at his numbers, they're virtually identical to his last year in Denver with similar minutes. I don't see how that makes him inconsistnent.
To steal the acronym from Mr. Body....
With Elson, WYSIWYG.
Players need to play in game situations. As White said, he lost a lot of confidence and got stale without game experience. Practice is simply practice and doesn't come close to the real thing in the way of sustained pressure, excitement, and extended time using the system .
I think White and Butler both need a lot of time on the Toros next season, if they can't earn decent minutes from the bench. Since the Toros will be using the same system now, they will still be learning the Spurs system but would be putting it into practice in game situations.
This new 'minor league farm system' situation is made for young players with potential as a testing ground.
Except Butler isn't eligible to play in the NBDL.
I don't doubt your word, but why in not? That league is meant for developmental work with young players.
I suppose it is some contractual thing or years in the league or something? That makes him more on the bubble this summer and in training camp IMO.
I notice that no one mentions his defense or at ude about playing defense. He's not gonna make it on the Spurs if he cant commit to playing good D and also have the tools to do it.
Only players in their 1st or 2nd year can play in the D-League.
Be nice if it were changed (to rehab players, get players more time, etc.), but a guy is eligible for only the first two years of his career to play in the NBDL.
Whoever wants to salary dump Butler for a second round pick should be forced to watch the Warriors summer league game. Specifically the play where Butler gets double, makes the perfect cross court pass, gets the ball swung back around to him and proceeds to drain a Kobe Bryant-esque fadeaway jumper from 18.
Yeah, let's just ship his fat ass off for nothing. Good idea
Butler>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Elson
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