82 Games Defensive Ratings

[ShoogarBear]

drob v duncan
barry v finley
aj v tp
etc

You forgot:
Drob vs. Coyote
Wrestling vs. Sports
Shane Heal vs. The World

That's whottt's schtick. Waay different from the near-paranoia about Manu.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'll echo Shoog -- I don't understand why it's so important to some that Manu or Tony is recognized as the clear #2 dog on this team; frankly, I don't think that anyone associated with the Spurs ever considers that question.

As for the question at hand, I see the rating itself as creating a metric that gives a credible result merely by happenstance. The Spurs' players do well in the metric because they have great +/- numbers -- half of the roster is in the Top 110 in that category. That's true because those players are better-than-average or better defenders on a league-wide basis. But it's also amplified, I think, because the Spurs have a whole bunch of those kinds of players. More importantly, though, I think that for the Spurs front line players, the defensive +/- that 82games uses (as I understand it), tends to get skewed a bit because there are enough games with lots of garbage time during a season to inflate those numbers for all of the guys who tend to sit a lot in the late stages of blowouts.

The Spurs blow teams out, but rarely get blown out. By a rough count, the Spurs were 15-0 in 2006-07 in games decided by 20+ points and were 25-3 in games decided by 15 points or more. In 2005-06, the Spurs were 13-0 in games decided by 20+ points and 18-4 in games decided by 15 points or more. That means that the Spurs are playing lots of garbage time -- and that doesn't include the handful of instances in which the Spurs starters built big leads only for those leads to be surrendered late.

The point of all of that is to say that so much garbage time will, in some cases at least, inflate the defensive numbers of the starters as the end of the benchers and the usual garbage time performers are surrendering points to an opponents starters for some portion of garbage time. I'm not saying that it completely nullifies the observation; but with 1/3 of the weighted score being derived from that metric, I question the conclusion at least a bit.

[polandprzem]

Not from that source.

hehe

I understand your pointview (if this word does not exsist it definately should)

[stéphane]

Seriously, I can understand someone being member of a "church" because you like his style on the court or the personnality off the court. But I dont get the bash to promote some are applying on some spurs players to praise Manu. Manu doesn't need his teammates to be worse than him to be a really skilled fun to watched dude.
But how can't you agree with Shoog and FWD when you read the kind of post aaron is writing. He's just a manu fan not a spurs fan. For his info it's SpursTalk here not ManuTalk.

[wildchild]

Seriously...But how can't you agree with Shoog and FWD when you read the kind of post aaron is writing. He's just a manu fan not a spurs fan. For his info it's SpursTalk here not ManuTalk.

For your info it's Spurs Talk here, not Tony Talk!

I have seen the Manu v. Parker fans in action...on two different Spurs sites. It's very real.

I don't sure...

[stéphane]

For your info it's Spurs Talk here, not Tony Talk!

ah "you don't sure" That's your 2nd day at ST and based upon my nationality you think all i can talk about is tp LOL
at least you were honest enough to include child in your pseudo

[mathbzh]

I used to be upset by the Manu vs. TP debate...
But it is finally a good entertainment.

Tim Cena MVP vs. Bobby Aaron Lashley

[wildchild]

ah "you don't sure" That's your 2nd day at ST and based upon my nationality you think all i can talk about is tp LOL
at least you were honest enough to include child in your pseudo

child, and WILD.

Seriously, where it is your sense of humor? I respect your nationality and if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
And it can be, that is my second day in spursforum but still I maintain my good humor.

If you are long time in ST, you lose the good humor?

[mathbzh]

child, and WILD.

Seriously, where it is your sense of humor? I respect your nationality and if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
And it can be, that is my second day in spursforum but still I maintain my good humor.

If you are long time in ST, you lose the good humor?

You will soon realize that Parker vs. Gino is a very touchy subject

[wildchild]

You will soon realize that Parker vs. Gino is a very touchy subject

seems that

[YamaSama]

The same guy who devised the original defensive ratings decided to come out with a revised version:

http://82games.com/nichols2.htm

Bruce gets his props in this version.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

good to see that little whiny aaronstampler get timvp'd.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

WTF is it about Manu that generated this fan base that feels the need to, if not hate other Spurs, at least denegrate them in order to make Manu look better?

In 30+ years of Spur Fandom there's never been anything like it.

Nobody argued about Silas vs. Gervin, or Gervin vs. Mitc .

Kenon himself had some issues abut his stats, but the fans were never divided on it.

And there was plenty of credit for both Robinson and Duncan to go around.

It wasn't until the Church of Manu showed up that objective analysis of a player strengths and weaknesses became the Inquisition.

I think the spurs big three in this recent time are in an echelon together that three spurs stars previous never reached together at the same time. The stakes are higher. But basically the manu church homers are just ing to justify their own existence.

[timvp]

The same guy who devised the original defensive ratings decided to come out with a revised version:

http://82games.com/nichols2.htm

Bruce gets his props in this version.

This is so classic. The guy adjusted his formula almost exactly how I said it should be adjusted. Anyone who was arguing against me just got owned by the writer of the article

I was pointing out the weaknesses in the formula and I get the freakin' Manu Mob carrying pitchforks trying to shout me down. They could have read what I was typing instead of trying to justify the formula just because their man was highly ranked. But then again, that'd be asking a lot from the worst sect of supposed Spurs fans in Spurs history.

As I mentioned when I first released the stat I have developed called Defensive Composite Score, it was very much a work in progress. I’m not one to assume that my ideas are better than others, so, after listening to e-mails from readers and ideas from the good people at the APBRmetrics message board (see http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/index.php), I made a few changes to the statistic. In my opinion, it’s better than it’s ever been

But, but I thought we were supposed to just except whatever it is the last article said.

Another major change was the removal of the box score stats completely. The three stats used were blocks, steals, and foul efficiency. Unfortunately, those stats don’t tell us much and can be very deceiving.

That's almost exactly what I said on page one of this thread. You can't judge how well a player plays defense by looking at blocks, steals and fouls. As I said earlier in the thread, some of the worst defenders in the league get a lot of steals or block a lot of shots.

Taking out that category completely was a good move.

Finally, I received a bunch of e-mails explaining how it’s not fair for Player X to get a certain score because said player either plays only in garbage time or said player has to guard the other team’s best scorer every night. I tried to adjust for that by using a statistic developed at the APBRmetrics board called %St. This statistic estimates how much of a player’s minutes were against starter-quality opponents.

Again, almost word for word from what I said earlier in the thread.


The new rankings are much better overall. Still a work in progress but it's a whole lot better than his first attempt. Taking out the box score stats is a huge plus. Counterpart plus/minus in its place is a huge upgrade.

There are still some holes, however. He doesn't say how the Defensive Ranking stat is derived. He combined the counterpart plus/minus so now if you are a swingman, you get an even bigger boost by playing next to a great defender. He talks about "%St" but didn't list the actual numbers and didn't say how it was used. But overall, this is a step in the right direction and he eliminated some of the major flaws I noted with his first attempt.

I'll be interested in how the Manu Mob responds to this update. Bowen is now listed as the better defender than Manu. Manu and Parker are virtually tied in the ranking. And now that counterpart +/- is used, it's impossible for a Manu homer to argue that Bowen didn't boost Manu's placement.

Parker ranks out as the best defensive starting point guard in the NBA. He tops them all in counterpart +/-, which is pretty impressive because Parker almost always guards the opposing point guard in the regular season. Pop only start putting Bowen on point guards in the playoffs.

But no doubt, Parker and Manu are both overrated in this ranking. Both are ranked as the best defender at their position. Neither one is the best at their position. However, I do agree with how close they are ranked and I'd even agree that Manu was the better defender in the regular season last year.

Duncan came away as by far the best defensive player in the league. And while he struggled at times last year defensively in the regular season, I believe he's a top two or three defender when he's trying. At his best, he's easily the best defender in the game. In this ranking, the difference between Duncan and second place is the same difference between second place and ninth place.

Bowen at number three overall makes this formula much more believable. Other than the Manu Mob, I don't think anyone could agree with Bowen not even being one of the best defenders on his own team. (Of course the Manu Mob could point to a couple games in which Bowen struggled to justify his lowered ranking in the first article.)

Bowen's defense is even more impressive when you look at the counterpart +/-. He turns players around him into very good defenders. The top two rated defenders on the Spurs according to counterpart +/- are Ginobili and Barry -- and we know that those numbers are heavily influenced by Bowen's ability to guard either shooting guards or small forwards ... unless a Manu homer wants to fight the fight that Barry is some sort of lockdown defender

If I were to rate the best defenders on the Spurs last regular season, I would have ranked them Bowen, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Horry. The result of this formula ranked them Duncan, Bowen, Ginobili, Parker and Horry ... so overall the formula did a nice job. Duncan and Bowen are close and when he's at his best, Duncan is the best defender in the league, so I can't argue with the top two spots being flip flopped.

Looking around the league, the results are a lot better than last time. I'll give this attempt a thumbs up. However, it can still be improved upon and the writer can do a better job of explaining how each part of the formula is used to calculate the findings.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm not even going to get into the Manu vs. Tony thing again, but there are still too many bizarre outcomes about the DCS to take it very seriously. The fact that he has black-boxed it so that you can't argue about his formula, only the results, is completely bogus.

-Joel Przybilla is the #2 defensive player in the league?
-Ilgauskas is #7?
-So, timvp, Elson is a better defender than Oberto? And Barry is better than Jacque Vaughn?

[timvp]

I'm not even going to get into the Manu vs. Tony thing again, but there are still too many bizarre outcomes about the DCS to take it very seriously.

Comparing it to his first attempt, this one is much better. The first one was a joke. Comparatively, this one is leaps and bounds better.

That said, I still don't think you can accurately find the best defenders in the league solely depending on stats. My thumbs up was more in regards of this second version being less of a joke.

The fact that he has black-boxed it so that you can't argue about his formula, only the results, is completely bogus.

Exactly. He goes out of his way to keep his method a secret. That is absurdly lame, especially when his latest formula was basically re-written by the posters on the apbrmetric forum.

He's never explained how the "Defensive Rating" is derived and seeing as that still lists Bowen as the worst defender on the Spurs, that part of the formula has to be explained for the overall formula to mean anything.

-Joel Przybilla is the #2 defensive player in the league?

Good defender. But of course not the second best defender in the league. What I'm guessing happened is now that he's using the amount of time players play against starters in his formula, a player like Przybilla who started but played few minutes would rank high in that category. Thus that'd inflate his stats.

Of course, he doesn't give the St% numbers or tell how it's used.

-Ilgauskas is #7?

That's probably the worst one. I'm guessing it's just a product of Mike Brown's system ... and the fact that this formula still sucks for the most part.

-So, timvp, Elson is a better defender than Oberto? And Barry is better than Jacque Vaughn?

Oberto was a horrible defender in the regular season. So horrible in fact that it's pretty likely that Elson was the better defender. In the playoffs, Oberto picked it up and was worlds better defensively than Elson.

Barry over Vaughn just shows how good of a defender Bowen is. Barry, much like Manu, defends the other team's worst perimeter player when he's in the game while Bowen guards the best. If that player happens to be listed as a shooting guard (which is usually the case), Barry (and Manu) get credit for the job Bowen is doing defensively.

Add to that Vaughn being an overrated defender and I can understand why that outcome occurred given what the formula consists of. And though I view Vaughn as an overrated defender, the drastic difference between his counterpart plus/minus and Parker's counterpart plus/minus points to Parker perhaps being a better defender than most want to give him credit for.

[ShoogarBear]

That said, I still don't think you can accurately find the best defenders in the league solely depending on stats.

And that's the key.

There actually is a hypothetical "perfect" way of rating defensive players. It's impossible to do, but it's worth going through the mental exercise:

Step 1. Take Bruce Bowen off the Spurs and replace him with, say Ron Artest. Then have the Spurs play their normal regular season schedule and evaluate the difference in team defensive efficiency with Artest vs. with Bowen. Then go through that for the Spurs with every other swingman in the league.

Step 2. Now take Bowen and have him replace the 3 (or 2) on every other team in the league, play their schedule, and evaluate the difference in defensive efficiency with and without Bowen.

Step 3: Repeat step 2 for Artest and every other swingman in the league.

What you end up with is a matrix which will show for each team in the league, which players play the best defense for their system. So if you take the guys who rank highest across the board for all teams, you have accounted for differences in teammates, coaching styles, rotations, etc. to the maximum extent possible.

Of course, that's impossible to do (although it might be interesting to see what they can do with some of the 5-man comb stats they have now), but THAT should be the true goal of any defensive rating scheme. The use of St% is somewhat a step in that direction. The use of counterpart PER is not, nor is the use of the magical mystical defensive rating as far as I can tell.

Until somebody comes close to doing that, though, I'm just going to trust these lying eyes.

[aaronstampler]

If you want to perpetuate the myth that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce, go ahead LJ, but both of us know I don't believe that. The only point I've ever made to you is that all having Bruce guard the better scorer means is that Bruce is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, period. It doesn't mean that Manu is a poor one-on-one defender, though.

Since Bruce is probably the best one-on-one perimeter defender in the league, he'd be guarding the other team's best player, regardless of who our team's shooting guard is. Conversely, Manu would be guarding the top guy if he was on 2/3 of the other team's in the league. Thankfully, he's on Bruce's team so he doesn't have to.

Overall though, I still think you're missing one important thing. Pop let's both Tim and Manu take a bit of a breather on defense because they actually have jobs to do on the other end. Bruce gets to spend 95% of his energy on defense because all he has to do on offense is stand in the corners with a thumb up his butt.

At the end of the day the team can afford to get zero offense from Bruce, but it sure can't afford to have Tim or Manu produce nothing. The team can afford Bruce to be in foul trouble. It can't afford Tim or Manu to.

If you want to give credit to anyone, give it to Tony. He's the only guy really who has to guard decent people most nights and still bring it on the other end. I'd rather you give him the praise than all the incessant slurping over Bruce.

Yeah, Bruce is good at his job. But it's his ONLY responsibility. If he wasn't good at it, he wouldn't be in the league. Giving Bruce props for his defense is like giving Steve Kerr credit for nailing threes or giving a lefty reliever like Mike Myers credit for getting Big Papi out. It's their jobs! It's the only reason they're employed! Don't you get this?

At the end of the day, I think our most valuable defender is still Tim. The ratings got it right with him. He's the foundation that makes everything else possible. He blocks the shots, he alters the shots, and he gets the rebounds. When Bruce and Manu and Tony get beaten, he's still the guy that has to save the day back there.

[Manudona]

I have the perfect name to be a Manu homer, so I will give it a try!

Manu and Parker are virtually tied in the ranking.

Manu 56.3 6th
Tony 40.0 21st

# Scores of 40+: Excellent defender
# 20 to 40: Very good defender

Virtually tied? You were talking about their shoes in EA NBA 2007? :P

Parker ranks out as the best defensive starting point guard in the NBA. He tops them all in counterpart +/-, which is pretty impressive because Parker almost always guards the opposing point guard in the regular season. Pop only start putting Bowen on point guards in the playoffs.

Devin Harris has a much better def +/- and a much better DCS Rating (although for you 47.6 vs 40.0 is virtually tied, right? as long as it pushes your argument, of course) :P. So you used the only stat that he has better and then transform him in the best PG? Even though they are virtually tied at 13.7 vs 15 :P :P

Other than the Manu Mob, I don't think anyone could agree with Bowen not even being one of the best defenders on his own team. (Of course the Manu Mob could point to a couple games in which Bowen struggled to justify his lowered ranking in the first article.)

Sorry TimVP but I do not remember reading not even one poster saying or implying this, other than you constantly accusing Aaron of doing it.

[QUOTE=timvp]Bowen's defense is even more impressive when you look at the counterpart +/-. He turns players around him into very good defenders. The top two rated defenders on the Spurs according to counterpart +/- are Ginobili and Barry -- and we know that those numbers are heavily influenced by Bowen's ability to guard either shooting guards or small forwards ... unless a Manu homer wants to fight the fight that Barry is some sort of lockdown defender
[quote]

Manu played, in the regular season, 2057:45 minutes, of those 1140:59 he was in the floor with Bowen, Barry played 1630:08, of those 856:04 with Bowen, so, if they depend so much on Bowen as you imply, how do you account for almost half their playing time? They just suck without Bowen but Bowen makes them into incredible defensive machines that they boost their defensive game in that half they are playing with him? It smells like you are playing with stats to show, yet again, what helps your argument.


Anyways, I think stats suck, they are a useful to managers and coaches as an information tool, but they do not show nothing else, all this attempts to rank players using them do not show much about a player's real game or value, as anything taken in a snapshot. For example, Manu's fault to Dirk in game 7 2006 po, just counts as one fault in the stats sheet, but taking it as the only play in the game to blame him also ignores that the Spurs were in that position thanks to in great part to his heart

[timvp]

I have the perfect name to be a Manu homer, so I will give it a try!

Welcome.

Manu 56.3 6th
Tony 40.0 21st

# Scores of 40+: Excellent defender
# 20 to 40: Very good defender

Virtually tied? You were talking about their shoes in EA NBA 2007? :P

One is in the 98th percentile. One is in the 94th percentile. Both graded out as excellent defenders the best starters at their position. That's virtually tied or very close or however you want to put it.

Devin Harris has a much better def +/- and a much better DCS Rating (although for you 47.6 vs 40.0 is virtually tied, right? as long as it pushes your argument, of course) :P. So you used the only stat that he has better and then transform him in the best PG? Even though they are virtually tied at 13.7 vs 15 :P :P

Devin Harris is no doubt a good defender but first of all, is he even the point guard of the Mavs? Terry averages more assists and brings up the ball as much or more than Harris. Harris also played a pretty good portion of his minutes from off the bench. And to top it off, Harris is a versatile defender who AJ puts on shooting guards a lot of the time.

Even if you want to overlook all that and count Harris is the best starting point guard defender, then I guess could survive with number two.

Sorry TimVP but I do not remember reading not even one poster saying or implying this, other than you constantly accusing Aaron of doing it.

You must have missed this post:

Don't forget that in the regular season Bowen had his ups and downs defensively. The usual suspects like T-Mac/Kobe/Wade (and even Adam Morrison) had good nights against him and even in the playoffs Melo had his way with him for a while.

Bruce deserves credit for stepping up his game in the playoffs, but I don't think his regular season ranking is that far off

Care to rephrase?

Manu played, in the regular season, 2057:45 minutes, of those 1140:59 he was in the floor with Bowen, Barry played 1630:08, of those 856:04 with Bowen, so, if they depend so much on Bowen as you imply, how do you account for almost half their playing time? They just suck without Bowen but Bowen makes them into incredible defensive machines that they boost their defensive game in that half they are playing with him? It smells like you are playing with stats to show, yet again, what helps your argument.

When Bowen is off the floor, that means the other team's best player on the wing is usually off the floor. So either way, Ginobili and Barry avoid matching up with the other team's best player.

Ginobili is a much better defender than Barry, but you won't find either one guarding a superstar scorer for longer than a couple possessions.

If you want to argue that Barry is a great defender ... well, then I guess I'll have to concede that point to you.

Anyways, I think stats suck, they are a useful to managers and coaches as an information tool, but they do not show nothing else, all this attempts to rank players using them do not show much about a player's real game or value, as anything taken in a snapshot. For example, Manu's fault to Dirk in game 7 2006 po, just counts as one fault in the stats sheet, but taking it as the only play in the game to blame him also ignores that the Spurs were in that position thanks to in great part to his heart

Exactly.

[timvp]

If you want to perpetuate the myth that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce, go ahead LJ, but both of us know I don't believe that. The only point I've ever made to you is that all having Bruce guard the better scorer means is that Bruce is a better one-on-one defender than Manu, period. It doesn't mean that Manu is a poor one-on-one defender, though.

Since Bruce is probably the best one-on-one perimeter defender in the league, he'd be guarding the other team's best player, regardless of who our team's shooting guard is. Conversely, Manu would be guarding the top guy if he was on 2/3 of the other team's in the league. Thankfully, he's on Bruce's team so he doesn't have to.

So when Bowen was out of the game against Denver, why didn't Manu guard either Carmelo or AI? Finley guarded Carmelo while Parker guarded AI. Ginobili would guard whoever else was on the court (usually either Blake or Kleiza). If Ginobili were a top flight one-on-one defender as you say, wouldn't he have been next in line to guard at least one of those two players?

Overall though, I still think you're missing one important thing. Pop let's both Tim and Manu take a bit of a breather on defense because they actually have jobs to do on the other end.

You really think Tim and Manu take a breather on the defensive end of the court? Tim is the anchor of the defense and is the last line of defense. Manu is always alert playing team defense.

What you consider a breather is actually playing to each player's strength. Duncan has become a great weakside shotblocker and is great at rotating off his man and clogging the lane. Manu is a great team defender who can cause havoc no matter who he is guarding. Keeping Duncan off the other team's best post player until it matters saves Duncan from getting in foul trouble. Manu isn't asked to guard good to great perimeter scorers because that's his weaknesses defensively ... and it'd neutralize his strength in the help defense department.

Bruce gets to spend 95% of his energy on defense because all he has to do on offense is stand in the corners with a thumb up his butt.

At the end of the day the team can afford to get zero offense from Bruce, but it sure can't afford to have Tim or Manu produce nothing. The team can afford Bruce to be in foul trouble. It can't afford Tim or Manu to.

If you want to give credit to anyone, give it to Tony. He's the only guy really who has to guard decent people most nights and still bring it on the other end. I'd rather you give him the praise than all the incessant slurping over Bruce.

Yeah, Bruce is good at his job. But it's his ONLY responsibility. If he wasn't good at it, he wouldn't be in the league. Giving Bruce props for his defense is like giving Steve Kerr credit for nailing threes or giving a lefty reliever like Mike Myers credit for getting Big Papi out. It's their jobs! It's the only reason they're employed! Don't you get this?

You act like playing defense is a specialty on the level of being a good three-point shooter or being a left handed relief pitcher. What you are missing out on is defense is half the game in basketball. It's not a specialty, it's actually the Spurs' bread and butter.

The Spurs have won three out of the last five championships because of their defense. Bowen is the leader of the defensive unit. That's not a one-trick pony -- that's a pony that excels in half the tricks.

[anakha]

The Spurs have won three out of the last five championships because of their defense. Bowen is the leader of the defensive unit. That's not a one-trick pony -- that's a pony that excels in half the tricks.

That pretty much sums up Bruce's value to the team, and why replacing him is going to be that damn hard.

[Manudona]

Welcome.

Thanks!

One is in the 98th percentile. One is in the 94th percentile. Both graded out as excellent defenders the best starters at their position. That's virtually tied or very close or however you want to put it.

Not that I care too much, but the author of the ranking posted a scale, and while one was on the top of the scale, the other was one step below; so I disagree with your point of view, which does not mean I can not understand your perspective.

Devin Harris is no doubt a good defender but first of all, is he even the point guard of the Mavs? Terry averages more assists and brings up the ball as much or more than Harris. Harris also played a pretty good portion of his minutes from off the bench. And to top it off, Harris is a versatile defender who AJ puts on shooting guards a lot of the time.

Even if you want to overlook all that and count Harris is the best starting point guard defender, then I guess could survive with number two.

Yep #2 (on that ranking of course sounds much better, I am a easy to please

You must have missed this post:Care to rephrase?

I read that completely different than you, for me he is not saying that Manu is better than Bowen, he is trying (unsuccesfully it seems ) to justify the reason why the formula might have worked out that way, and He is not using arguments too different than yours, that Bowen is always playing against the very best players of the opponents, paying dearly in the stats and rankings for every good night this stars had. I understand again your pov, specially for I think Aaron last sentence was very fortunate, saying he stepped up his game might look as saying he was not playing as good.

When Bowen is off the floor, that means the other team's best player on the wing is usually off the floor. So either way, Ginobili and Barry avoid matching up with the other team's best player.

Ginobili is a much better defender than Barry, but you won't find either one guarding a superstar scorer for longer than a couple possessions.

If you want to argue that Barry is a great defender ... well, then I guess I'll have to concede that point to you.

Exactly.

I am not sure TimVP, what about Finley, where is he in this picture? why does he not have his defensive stats boosted? after all he started many many games with Bowen on the floor, right? Finley and Bowen made the second worst two man unit of the RO in a little less than 800 minutes (+/-, not defensive, point here is really the minutes played), a similar number of minutes of the Bowen - Barry duo, yet Finley is buried as the last Spur in DCS rating AND Def +/-, and in the worst half of the Counter part, so, why can't Finley feed of Bowen's game? By the way, if you look at Def +/-, Manu is the 3rd best Spur and Barry and Finley the two worst and Manu smokes past Barry in the DCS, so your Barry/Manu argument is only comparable in one of the defensive stats, so I can say Barry feeds of Bowen much better than Manu .

Anyways, I think I am lost, I no longer remember what was what I was arguing , I think I am just arguing for the sake of arguing , as I said, I do not like stats! By the way, you know who is an statistician? A guy who has his head in the oven and his feet in the freezer and proclaims "On average, I feel great" (roughly and quickly translated, wording might vary)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

wow... glad I stumbled upon this thread 3 days late Now I know to stay the out. Another Tp vs Manu thread... after a championship no less... I guess its alright, with the Spurs having done squat this offseason, I'd imagine people here are starving for some controvercy

[TheAuthority]

I've just been skimming through this horse , and anyone who thinks Manu is a better defender than Bowen is a Manu fan boy. Plain and simple. When's the last time Manu was up for defensive player of the year? Try um... never. He showed his great ability to play defense when he took Nowitzki's arm off, in one of the most boneheaded defensive plays in NBA history, that cost the Spurs a championship. So no, please don't even put him in the same sentence with Bowen.