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Yeah, one or two good years = superstar. Dan au is a year away!
Don't even waste your time on him. It's quite clear what your point was, and it's also quite clear mono's an ass.
Yeah, one or two good years = superstar. Dan au is a year away!
If this deal really does go down (and I'm still not sure it won't fall apart before it's done) then the C's will have shipped off half their roster (Jefferson, West, Gomes, Szerbiak) for 3 players who have all been All Stars, who could all make it to the Hal of Fame someday, and who have all been franchise players all by themselves for most of their career.
That being said, Allen and Pierce have both battled injuries, and all 3 are in their 30's.
It's a big gamble to trade young, young talent like Jefferson (not to mention West and Gomes, who are both pretty good) for that set up.
On the other hand, the C's need to do something to shake things up, cause Pierce is getting frustrated and the franchise has been going nowhere ever since they decided to blow up the Pierce and Walker tandem.
It's a gamble, but at least it's a definitive and proactive move. I think Boston will be better. They do need to find some spare pieces, but they should be better. I just don't buy into the theory some suggest that they're the team to beat in the Eastern Conference, not just yet anyway. Add a decent back-up small forward, a veteran big man and a veteran point guard, and then they'll be on their way. But, can they do all of that with no pieces left to trade and only the MLE and veteran minimums left to work with?
They might end up pursuing old guys like Doug Christie, Derek Anderson to fill out their holes, or unproven youngsters like James White or Luke Schenscher that would not cost much at all. But, at least they don't need to find versatile guys they need to do multiple things. They need spot-up shooters and defenders.
I'm interested to see what else Danny Ainge does in terms of rounding out the roster.
Its so funny to me that people say that A)the Celtics got raped, and B)That this trade doesnt make Boston a contender.
Jefferson (who only has 2 years left on his contract, no guarantee he would have re-signed anyway) is a nice player, and Green could be ok, but to act like these guys are proven commodities is stupid. How many games did these 2 help the Celts win last year? Gomes is ok, but really, this guy is going to make or break this deal? He only has 1 year left on his deal anyway, so Im pretty sure he will be traded. Telfair? I dont even have to say about him or Ratliff. The 2 picks, one of which was Minny's two start with, is necessary to get a former MVP.
Everyone keeps saying yea, but these guys havent won . Well what have the players Boston gave up proved that they can win?
All 3 of these players have taken teams far into the playoffs with way worse #2 options than they have now, and 2 of them in the West, but yet the 3 of them together wont be a factor in the ty East.
And to all these Pistons fans saying that they arent contenders, o, your team just got beat by the tiest team to ever play in the Finals, so to pretend like this team wont be better than the Cavs is just that, pretending.
Im not a fan of any of these 3 players really besides Pierce, but all 3 want to win, 2 coming off great years, and pierce was playing great before he got hurt.
The Celts will grab a couple more guys like Brevin Knight or PJ Brown to fill out there roster, and they will be a top 2 team in the East.
If I recall correclty, they have MLE and LLE left.
Who's calling for a Celtics championship? If they were in the West, they would likely still be thought of as a middle-of-the-pack team. There's no way they can currently be considered better than the Spurs, Rockets, Mavs, Jazz or Suns with the huge, gaping holes at PG and C.
However, Boston just pulled a few trades that few teams in the NBA ever have the chance to do. They upgraded their team from a 25-35 win team to make a potential run at 45-55 games, with a real chance at the ECF, at the very least.
The main difference between this trade and many other "superstar" acquisitions, since we're throwing that word around, is that these players are largely complementary of one another. I don't mean they give each other high-fives. I mean their games are well suited to one another. KG is a fierce boarder and defensively strong, Ray Allen is a bomber who can kill you if you give him more than a foot, and Pierce has great penetration abilities and is very solid all-around.
The fact that you're up in-arms stating how they won't win a le is basically the same thing as saying the Cubs probably won't win it this year. Well, ya think? Man, you're really going out on a ledge there.
And anyone who DOES proclaim the Celts as the best in the NBA without setting foot on the court as a team is a complete dolt and a homer anyway, and you should know better than to respond to them in the first play.
Most people aren't saying Boston isn't a contender now. Most people aren't saying Boston got raped.
I think Boston got better. And, I definitely think they are a contender in the Eastern Conference now. I've just been saying it doesn't automatically pencil them into the NBA Finals.
You are misrepresenting what most people in this thread have written. There might be a few that said those things. Most Pistons fans haven't said Boston isn't a contender, just that they aren't the outright team to beat in the East.
There's a huge difference in what you imply and what has actually been stated.
It's a messageboard. There's discussion. I added my two cents in. I've already stated that I believe the move makes the Celtics better. I've just been saying I don't think it makes them the outright favorite in the Eastern Conference. That's all.
I posted my opinion just like everyone else has.
The back and forth with mono was just over the idea that three great players automatically means a team is good or not. The word "superstars" was tossed around, but that wasn't my point, and what ensued was stupid mindless banter on both parts.
I don't think many think many people peg the Celtics as favorites for an NBA le. But, there are some that believe they are the obvious choice to be the Eastern Conference NBA finalist. I'm just offering an opinion that I don't think that's the case, just yet anyway.
Just an opinion. It's a messageboard. The messageboard is filled with opinions. I'm not responding to anyone who claims Boston will win a le. I'm expressing an opinion. Just as you just did.
Thats 3 from this thread, not to mention the other one.
You keep saying depth, depth, depth, yet the Cavs knocked off the Pistons and got to the Finals with none.
Boston after they add a couple more vets will be the best team in the East by far
3 out of 84 responses. Again, my point is that most people aren't saying those things.
Cavs had more depth than Tony Allen, Leon Powe, and Brian Scalabrine.
The Celtics still need to add at least two quality role players to that squad. Depending if they do that and who they are, then I can change my impression of that team.
I'm not one of those people who think Boston got raped or that they're not contenders, at least in the Eastern Conference. I am just questioning anyone who thinks that the Celtics are automatically the team to beat in the East.
Who? Donyell Marshall? Damon Jones? Eric Snow?
No they won because of their starters, not because of their bench.
Varajao was all they had off the bench, and he cant score
Gibson played well, but he was a second round pick that played way over his head, so why couldnt the Celts have someone like Pruitt or Davis step up?
Not to mention the Celts will actually have a scorer off the bench in Allen, something the Cavs didnt have.
Daniel Gibson came off the bench for most of the playoffs. Gibson had several very big games, especially against the Pistons. Without Gibson, the Pistons very well may have been able to get past the Cavs. Did you forget about Daniel Gibson? Varejao was very good for the most part and for what he brings.
Eric Snow and Donyell Marshall are both more productive than Tony Allen, Leon Powe, and Scalabrine, and they are the 8th and 9th guys for the Cavs last year in the playoffs. As it stands now, Tony Allen, Powe, and Scalabrine will be counted on very heavily as the initial bench reserves.
And, at any rate, the Cavs didn't have the gaping holes in the starting line-up the Celtics currently have. So, it's not just the bench, but the fact that Rajon Rondo can't shoot and Kendrick Perkins is likely currently slated to start at center.
Larry Hughes versus Rajon Rondo.
Zydrunas Ilgauskas versus Kendrick Perkins.
Not just bench depth versus bench depth. That's not an accurate comparison because the two starting spots for the Celtics makes the bench depth that much more crucial.
It's not just the bench by itself. It's also that the Celtics are very weak at two of the starting positions.
Again, if Danny Ainge makes smart moves to cover those holes, then it could be a different story.
No, I actually addressed Gibson by saying that if a second round pick can play well in the playoffs for the Cavs, why couldnt Pruitt or Davis do the same for the Celts?
And Snow and marshall both suck ass and did nothing all year or in the playoffs.
Hughes is vastly over-rated, and even when hurt the Cavs where still able to move past the Pistons.
Big Z also i sucks ass and its hard for me to give him the advantage over anyone
So the Celts will have a pretty good starting 5, with a bench scorer/defender, a rookie pf who was tearing up the summer league, and a second year sf/pf in Powe who was making huge strides towards the end of last year and during summer league.
Add to the fact that Rondo and Perkins will both be much better next year, plus the Celts having to add a couple more pieces, they will have plenty of depth
I still think the Pistons are the favorites, but after that ECF series, it seriously shook my beliefs of how good they are.
You are right about them having to get a couple of vets though, there bench is going to be very young as it stands right now
Last edited by mardigan; 07-31-2007 at 01:32 PM.
Marshall hit 6 or 7 three pointers in the deciding game of the New Jersey series. Snow sucks, but he gets 5-10 minutes where he has to play above average defense, and he did several times on Vince Carter again in that New Jersey series.
Daniel Gibson was depth. He didn't start until Larry Hughes got injured. He was part of that depth.
Pruitt and Davis might be able to step up. But, they will also need to step up right away from the beginning of the regular season because they are automatically higher on the depth chart. Will they be able to positively contribute right away without any grace period? Maybe. But, right now, Kevin Garnett is the only proven commodity in the frontcourt for the Celtics. Kendrick Perkins and Glen Davis will BOTH have to contribute on a nightly basis. And, Gabe Pruitt will be thrown into the fire right away as well. It's sink or swim. Right now, the Celtics don't have any safety rope if they don't contribute. They can only hope to hide them behind prolific offensive numbers by KG, Allen, and Pierce. What happens when a quality point guard attacks Rondo and Pruitt. Wait until Jason Kidd and Gilbert Arenas and Chauncey Billups exploit their youth, inexperience, size, and strength. And, what happens when a team has two quality big men? Against the Knicks, who does Kendrick Perkins guard? Eddy Curry or Zach Randolph?
You would hope that Rondo and Perkins improve, especially being surrounded with the talent of the three stars. If they can be as good as DeShawn Stevenson and Etan Thomas, that might be enough. If they can fit in like DeSagana Diop and Greg Buckner, perhaps then they'll be fine. If they're Jason Collins and Smush Parker good, is that enough though?
Even if the Celtics add a couple more pieces, of course depending on who they are, I still don't know if you can say they'll have "plenty of depth."
As for the Pistons, I don't think they are the favorites in the East. I think they'll take the step back that people expected for the last three seasons. I think they'll barely win 50 games, if that many. And, I think they lose in the second round of the playoffs. I think they will really try to dedicate this season to developing some young players, whether they want to accept the results of early round playoff failure or not.
I think Chicago will be the best team in the Eastern Conference next season. And, with a healthy Nenad Krstic and a newly acquired Jamall Magloire, I expect the Nets to be right in the thick of things near the top of the conference again as well.
Miami, Cleveland, and Detroit will be compe ive and could challenge for top spots in their respective divisions. And, now Boston along with Washington and New York will act as spoilers and may end up surprising the conference as well. I think Toronto falls out of the playoffs. And, I think Orlando will be a team scraping for a 7th or 8th seed.
This is a GREAT trade for the Celtics. Anyone who sees it any other way is insane.
The Celtics main loss in this deal was Gomes.
Hear me out before you pass judgement. I say that Gomes was the biggest loss because they don't have anyone at the moment who replaces his skill-set (combo forward).
I undersand that Jefferson was the most talented player to go from the Celts, but he's being replaced by Kevin Garnett....not to mention they've got two potentially solid backups in "Big Baby" Davis and Leon Powe that play the same position.
They also lost West, but Rondo is a capable assist man and they drafted Gabe Pruitt....who, like West, is more of a scoring combo guard.
Szerbiak and Green together don't come close to equaling Ray Allen, and the Celtics still have Tony Allen who should be a sparkplug off the bench when fully recovered.
They have 12 players if you include Brandon Wallace, but they have the MLE and LLE to go out and add a couple veterans if they wanted to IL some of their younger guys.
Bottom Line: While dealing Gomes leaves them skinny at SF, they added two perennial all-stars and have vaulted themselves to the top of the Eastern Conference.
Marshall had that one game, but other than that he didnt do , and was a defensive liabiltiy every time he touched the floor.
And I feel what your saying about the point guard position, but Rondo is an excellent defender, and even showed that during his rookie year.
And I completely agree about the Nets, getting Krstic back on top of Magloire and drafting Shaun Williams they could be at the top of the East
I just think that after they sign a few vets, maybe even a Jalen Rose or someone, will have the most dangerous team in the East
I bet they wished they had held on to Allen Ray though
Disagree with this take.
NO team in the league today has solid to great players at every position. Every team has flaws.
At PG the Celtics have a good assist guy who's main flaw is that he can't shoot....which shouldn't be a problem since he won't be asked to very much. They also drafted Gabe Pruitt, who fills the same role as Delonte West. So they need a third PG.....they have the $$ to go out and get one.
At Center they've got Kendrick Perkins....who's main job will be to grab rebounds, which isn't too much to ask. Dude will be playing next to Kevin Garnett. Put it this way....do the Spurs ask alot of Oberto/Elson? Exactly...
IMO, the Celtics would be 5th...maybe 6th best team in the Western Conference.
Ok, agreed for the most part, mardigan.
Remember, Marshall and Snow only played about 10 mpg in the playoffs. And, at the very least, you knew what you're getting. With Davis and Pruitt, the Celtics may be asking even more minutes out of them and they have no idea what they're getting as of yet. But, you're right in that either one or both may end up being good role players.
On the Nets ... I don't like the Nets, like their fans even less, like face Thorn even less than that. But, Rod Thorn did a solid job at making calculated gambles to put the Nets in a very good position this year and next. Healthy, the Nets have as much talent as any team in the East. Getting Magloire to sign a one year contract was very smart also.
Boston will definitely add a few pieces. And, to me, the guys Ainge ends up adding to the roster might be almost as important as the deals for KG and Ray Allen. Jalen Rose and Chris Webber might be guys he goes after. Even Doug Christie, who might still be able to play all three perimeter positions, could possibly be an option. How about Derek Anderson, who can also play some point guard? Old veteran centers like Dale Davis or Marc Jackson might provide needed depth upfront. Then there might also be some cheap younger alternatives like James White and Melvin Ely to shore up those depth issues.
How Ainge finishes rounding out that roster could end up being extremely telling factors as to how that team ends up performing throughout the season.
Speaking of Kendrick Perkins...dude is gonna look a lot better if he plays beside KG, that's all I have to say. He's a decent rebounder and center when he wants to be, and he's never played beside such talent before. Hmmmm. So...if this goes through the C's starting line up is:
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Kendrick Perkins
Ray Allen
Rajon Rondo
Not bad. It's a lot of responsiblity on Rondo's shoulders, trying to lead a veteran team like that but the kid is really good, from what I gather.
They've basically decimated the rest of their roster, but they do still have Brian Scalabrine and Leon Powe, who have some potential, and they've got Glen Davis and someone else who looked promising from this year's rookie class. 2-3 more halfway decent players and they should have a solidly contending team.
BUT, they did give up LOADS of talent in Al Jefferson and Delonte West to try this, and we don't know whether PP, Ray, and KG can even co-exist together...
For sure, a couple of guys like that that could provide depth and knowledge to a young team could be key.
I probably did go a little far already putting them in the Finals, think it was just the shock of seeing a NBA Live team assembled so quickly.
Why is it you think the Pistons take a step back? They bring back the same team plus Stuckey, who should solve their bench scoring issues.
If any team takes a step back I think it will be the Cavs and the Raps, niether team will be a surprise team and have added nothing to address thier own problems (unless you count Kapono).
What jersey number will Garnett wear? #21 is retired by the Celtics (Bill Sharman).
I like Perkins a lot as well, he has improved every year since coming out of high school, and averaged 5 boards and a block and a half last year in like 21 minutes a game.
As far as Jefferson, who really knows how good he will be. Maybe he turns out to be Elton Brand, but even then, would you really put Brand over Garnett?
Dealing talent is always hard, you dont know how good it will be, but trading it for a known en y like Garnett always makes it easier.
West, Szcerbiak, Telfair, Ratliff, Green, Gomez, and 3 first round picks for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett seems pretty fair to me.
Yeah, well the onus is on Ainge to make some smart, cheap moves, but it's possible. Back-up swing man should be first priority, then a veteran center, and then a veteran point guard if they can find all of that with the MLE and veteran exceptions. I'll give credit to Ainge for getting Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett without losing Pierce. But, he IS still Danny Ainge. I am not going to assume he makes the right moves on who else he brings in.
The Pistons still have a host of problems that are not only apparent on paper when you look at the roster. I think many of the core players have grown tired of Flip Saunders. I think that emotionally, that has played a role in some of the mental lapses and lack of focus the team has had over the last two seasons, more specifically in the playoffs. Their focus and determination and hunger has been clouded by y arrogance and a feeling of self en lement. I place blame on the coach for that. Because the talent and team chemistry the Pistons should have dictates that they should have had better success the last two seasons.
That's just one of the problems you don't necessarily see when you just look at the team on paper. But, it's also something that plenty of people have criticized about them. And, I think there's more merit than some think in that.
I also still think they have a problem at center. Nazr sucks, and we should have known he wasn't going to be much better than when he was with the Spurs. Chris Webber can't play defense, and who knows if he returns. Jason Maxiell is a beast and deserves to start, but he's listed at 6-7 and really about 6-5. If he starts, that forces him to guard centers who are much bigger than he is or forces Rasheed to play out of position. But, in all honesty, Maxiell is probably the best player the Pistons have to start with the other four starters. The make-up of the Pistons is not that of the Phoenix Suns, so small ball doesn't necessarily seem very appealing or successful.
After that, the Pistons still don't have a back-up small forward. As it stands, late first round draft pick Arron Afflalo or Ronald Dupree will have to end up getting considerable playing time at the back-up small forward spot. I don't like that, especially with all the great swingmen in the Eastern Conference, from LeBron to Pierce to Rashard Lewis to Gerald Wallace to Richard Jefferson to Josh Smith. I just think the Pistons need some better size and athleticism at that back-up spot.
And, finally, we don't know what we're getting with Rodney Stuckey. We're hoping he's an upgrade. But, he's still a rookie. We won't know until we see him for a few games. And, right now, he's going to be asked to carry the scoring load off the bench. Pretty demanding for a rookie to handle on an "alleged" championship caliber team.
I think teams like the Nets and Washington (healthy) and Chicago have all improved, and then you have the new Boston Celtics. You add Cleveland and Miami, and the Eastern Conference appear at least on paper more compe ive. The Pistons are a little older and not discernably better from last year. I have my doubts. They will still compete, but I think they take a step back. We're hoping that Amir Johnson is everything he's cracked up to be and more.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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