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So you're calling me a racist.
.
You.
That is a rebuke and a denial.
Paranoia will destroy 'ya.
So you're calling me a racist.
.
You.
That is a rebuke and a denial.
So, I take it that you also want a wall on the Canadian border?
Say, how did that concept work in Berlin?
I don't particularly want a wall on either border; I want adequate security. If that means putting up a wall here or there so be it.
Rep. Solomon Ortiz, a Democrat and ex-Border Patrolman, said in Texas Monthly that you don't need a wall across the entire southern border, but you do need a wall in a few spots. I hope Ortiz isn't a racist for saying so.
I never claimed to have it all figured out; my opinion is just that.... my opinion. Besides, the 'immigration problem' and its dynamics are way bigger than you or anybody else in this forum can even comprehend, let alone solve. Why else do you think that Congress can't settle on anything and at least make one progressive move on the issue?
Back to the point of the thread however (the point you keep missing... and no, me pointing this out is not condescending; it's more of a core disagreement with the concept that someone can be labeled a criminal simply for choosing to seek a better a future for themselves; at great sacrifice no less).... Anyways, go ahead and label all hardworking undo ented immigrants as criminals... it's your perogative to do as you please... continue to 'demonize' them...
But just so you know... that condescending at ude towards them will never solve anything. It will never produce fruitful bilateral talks.
It is that very same prevailing sentiment amongst America's isolationists that has shut many doors on route to viable solutions for the problem. That at ude is disrespectful to the very existence of immigrants. These people aren't animals you know... they're humans just like you or me... So if you believe I'm the "asshole" for believing otherwise you best check yourself in the mirror.
BTW whenever you get over that little persecution complex of yours we can continue to have a normal discussion...
Until then we will just have to agree to disagree...
Oh.... did that get you all riled up? My bad. That's why the immigration issue is a hot topic....
Last edited by Phenomanul; 08-10-2007 at 10:20 PM.
Characterize my mindset in whatever terms you like; however, I'd like an answer to this question:BTW whenever you get over that little persecution complex of yours we can continue to have a normal discussion...
See, the problem I'm having is that while I answer your questions, you keep reframing the debate. That is the root of the impasse. If you're unwilling to answer questions, what more can I do?By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?
And yeah, I do get a little riled about certain topics, but always remember we'll be standing shoulder to shoulder from November to June.
Cheers!
Bush Moves To Step Up Immigration Enforcement
By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, August 11, 2007; A01
A month after immigration restructuring failed in Congress, the Bush administration yesterday mapped a broad campaign to tighten border security and to pressure employers to fire illegal immigrant workers.
The 26 measures -- most of which continue or expand on current policies --
include raising fines for knowingly hiring illegal workers,
streamlining current guest-worker programs,
bolstering an electronic system employers can use to verify workers' legal status, and
adding 370 miles of border fencing,
300 miles of vehicle barriers and
1,700 more Border Patrol agents.
"These reforms represent steps my administration can take within the boundaries of existing law," President Bush said in a statement released shortly after Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez presented the plan at a news conference. "Although the Congress has not addressed our broken immigration system by passing comprehensive reform legislation, my administration will continue to take every possible step to build upon the progress already made in strengthening our borders, enforcing our worksite laws, keeping our economy well-supplied with vital workers, and helping new Americans learn English."
Republicans offered a mixed reaction to the move -- just as they had to the failed legislation.
"It's a huge political issue, and a huge chunk of the population and a big part of the Republican Party base is demanding something be done," said GOP strategist Ed Rogers. "I hope the point is to establish credibility so maybe the next president has a better opportunity to really fix the problem."
By contrast, many Democrats, immigrant advocates and business representatives expressed skepticism and alarm.
"Sadly, the administration's proposal would make our immigration crisis worse," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), one of the key negotiators of the compromise immigration bill that failed in the Senate. "[It] will only exacerbate the already serious problems of our immigration system by causing even more confusion about who can be hired, resulting in the unjust firings of legal workers who look foreign and driving more hardworking people into the shadows." The impact on immigrant-dependent industries such as construction and agriculture -- whose workforce is at least two-thirds illegal -- would be "devastating," predicted Craig Regelbrugge, government relations director for the American Nursery & Landscape Association.
"There's no replacement workforce," he said. "This will give people a set of bad choices: Either they terminate their workers, or they take a deep breath and duck and hope the law doesn't catch up with them. Or, for a lot of people, they're just going to make the decision to get out of the business."
Particularly controversial are new guidelines for employers who receive a "no-match" letter from the Social Security Administration informing them that 10 or more of their employees have Social Security numbers that do not correspond with government records.
The administration issues about 140,000 no-match letters a year, covering about 10 million workers. Many are the result of innocent mistakes -- a worker miswrote his Social Security number on a form, for example, or failed to notify the government of her new, married name.
But a no-match often is an indicator that the worker is among the estimated 7.5 million illegal immigrants working in the United States.
Federal prosecutors have occasionally used an employer's disregard of no-match letters as evidence that he or she knowingly hired illegal immigrants -- a violation of federal law. But until now, employers were given few guidelines as to how to respond to the notices and have frequently ignored them.
The new regulations -- which will take effect next month -- offer employers "safe harbor" from prosecution if they require their employee to resolve the no-match discrepancy within 90 days -- for instance, by contacting the appropriate government agency to correct mistaken records. If the worker is unable to do so, the employer must terminate the worker or face possible criminal liability.
The Social Security Administration does not alert immigration authorities when it sends out no-match letters, so the new regulations are unlikely to trigger a sudden wave of prosecutions.
But Randel Johnson of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce said most employers are unlikely to consider such nuances -- particularly in light of the increased civil penalties and recently stepped-up enforcement of immigration law.
Immigration authorities have increased criminal arrests of both employers and employees from 24 in fiscal 1999 to 716 in 2006. And they appear on track to nearly double that number this year.
"Look, employers are going to want to protect themselves, so, de facto nearly all employers are going to follow the new rules," Johnson said. "And that is going to have a serious impact in certain industries."
Kathleen Walker, president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, said she was worried that employers may open themselves to civil rights lawsuits when they fire a legal worker who is unable to resolve his case within 90 days.
"Even if you're a legal worker, good luck trying to get an appointment with the Social Security Administration in time, let alone resolving your case," she said. "And then the employer gets put between the proverbial rock and the hard place."
She and others questioned the effectiveness of an existing computer program to check employment eligibility that the administration will expand and give a new name, E-Verify.
The program -- which matches information for employees with more than 425 million Social Security records and 60 million homeland security records -- now is used voluntarily by 19,000 employers.
Under the plan announced by Chertoff, the government would initiate a rulemaking process to require federal contractors and vendors -- 200,000 companies -- to use it.
Walker said E-Verify does not include a complete array of immigration records and has a substantial error rate.
Others criticized the administration's promise to eliminate delays in obtaining approval for seasonal agricultural and low-skilled non-agricultural workers under two existing guest-worker programs.
"There is not an administrative solution, and tinkering with the regulations is not going to solve the problem," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), co-sponsor with Sen. Larry E. Craig (R-Idaho) of a bill that would overhaul the nation's agricultural jobs sector. "The administration's approach is a Band-Aid that will not stop the looming crisis American agriculture will face this fall. The crisis is that crops will not be harvested."
Staff writers Anne E. Kornblut, Karin Brulliard and Spencer S. Hsu and political researcher Zachary A. Goldfarb contributed to this report.
You are fooling yourself if you think not having illegals here doesn't help the cost of living big time, I am a brick/block/stone mason, if there were no illegals it would cost twice as much for a block wall, or stone work, three times as much for any kind of brick work, Americans are too lazy to do the work I do, (I'm Canadian). You just don't see many white workers in my field.
instead of having fences on the border, why not landmines
How about a landmine in YOUR ass for spewing out of YOUR ass?instead of having fences on the border, why not landmines
Stealing someone else iden y is not illegal? How would
you like it if they stole yours and screwed up your life?
Those that come into the country illegally break the law
at least twice, once from entering the country illegally
and again when they take someone else's iden y.
It is also an insult to those that try to do it right and
come into the country legally. Or is it okay by you
to have someone cut in the line ahead of you?
I don't understand why you relatives have such a hard
time coming here to visit. I know many from out of
country to visit have no trouble at all.
Perhaps a wall should've been built around Ellis Island.
Why Joe? Those people entering were doing so legally.
And some weren't admitted. Learn your history before
trying to make a mockery of the term immigrants.
Illegal is illegal. There is no such thing as human rights
or rights for those that come illegally. They are law
breakers just like a robber. They also rob, rob other
people of their iden y.
Just because this answer should be ing hilarious - Which humans do have rights, Xray?
I know my history and was just being sarcastic. My point is that this country was built on immigration and yes, those coming over through Ellis Island or any place, did so legally. My grandparents did it.
I agree with the fact that we should welcome immigrants to our country. The proglem is not immigration, its that other "I" word we put in front of it.."ILLEGAL".
And I disagree...I feel everyone has HUMAN RIGHTS, even illegal immigrants. Being illegal does not make you iinhuman. Not all of them rob other people of their iden y. Stop making a mockery of those who, while they are illegal, are not robbers in as you see them.
Is ANYONE going to answer this question?By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?
there is no correlation between immagrants and timvps dream.....
There is no excuse to allow America to be solely responsible for this problem. So far we have shouldered the entire burden, and it has to stop. There are both positives and negatives to immigration for the US, but tell me one significant way it hurts Mexico.
IMO, hold the Mexican govt responsible and American businesses responsible and this problem will be dramatically lessened.
There isn't a simple answer to immigration in the United States. For some reason many people believe that the American society cannot survive without these "illegal" people working for us. Before this summer I was always one of these people who believe that no matter what happened, if someone came into the United States without going through legal processes should be thrown out without question. I really don't have anything to say on the recent immigration news, but I would like to share a little story with all of you. You can read it, skip over it, or even call my bull , but it has really affected my "Get them all out of here!" opinion."
About two weeks ago a parent came up as my elementary students were coming in to their last day of camp. One of my co-workers asked for me to come up and listen to a conversation she and a parent were having, just to be clear because it was in Spanish. We talked for a little bit and the mom, who has 5th grade twin boys with the biggest at udes in the world, says, in broken English, "I don't think the boys are going to be here tomorrow." In my rushed actions I shrugged it off because it was the last day. I said, "It's okay, it's the last day." She responded with..."My husband was taken back to Mexico by immigration." I had a shocked look on my face. I would never have thought of it. We went through the day with a heavy heart, just because I knew it was a family. They seem tight knit and loving. I hugged and held on to the boys just to let them know I was there for them. I even asked the more mature one if he was alright with what was going on with his father. He just told me "He's on vacation in mexico."
heir mom came in with their cousins and little sister close to pick them up and their mother came up to talk to me. I embraced her and told her things would get better. Through her tears we talked and she told me their story. It was a story of uncertainty. That's what I never though of before. The United States brings some sort of certainty to these families lives. Whether they're here for a few weeks or for nine years working towards their visas, there is a pay-check and food...if they find a good job. This family of five had rent to pay ($480 a month), school to get ready for, and all those other things I can't think of. The mother was just so unsure of what to come she couldn't keep it together any longer. She was so strong, so powerful, so amazing. I admire her now. Before she was just a mother.
The church secretary came over to talk with us to make sure all over things were taken came of, that the boys would have clothes, a place to live, food, etc. The boys and sister grabbed their end of the day activities and started to leave. I hugged the two of them and shed a tear for their uncertainty. After my co-workers and I gathered our composure, the less mature one of the two came in to get our phone numbers. As we gathered around him we realized that the boys knew what was going on. They knew he was gone, they knew they weren't going to talk to their father for a long time, and they knew he could be in Mexico, in jail. There was nothing they could do. We hugged the smaller boy and he started to cry, knowing that we wouldn't see him again. We cried with him, with all the same uncertainty as he had. As he left we saw the other boy and hugged and cried with both of them.
I now see the personal side of this issue. I know this issue is too large to see every single story, and it's like any other issue, a few stories will get lots of attention, but I'm just asking that anyone who has the mentality that everyone who somehow gets into the United States to do that so called "work Americans don't want to do" or even the work we do want to do, that we think about the families, the children, and their futures.
That is not the case for the majority of undo ented workers xray. They make up SSN numbers or use those of dead citizens. I just love how the minority scenario (iden y theft) somehow becomes the rule and not the exception.
In laymens terms....
Is iden y theft bad? Of course it is I don't condone it - never have.
Are all undo ented workers using this method?
A resounding NO. Less than 1% of illegal immigrants use someone else's SSN. Most of the time it is sold to them by the people actually making a profit from this scheme (the true criminals behind this problem).
More than 75% of undo ented workers don't even use fake SSNs. They don't use one at all. The remainder use defunct numbers or fake ones that are completely made up.
Please don't pool everyone together and get your facts straight. Again, that is why it enfuriates me when American isolationists take the high road, and proclaim that all undo ented workers are 'criminals'... as if they needed to be lumped with the true s of society.
As far as my relatives go... being in Mexico's lower economic class doesn't help. The upper class can get in with relative ease. The very small middle class can get in if they try hard and have a decent profession. The lower class has an almost zero percent chance of coming here for a 'visit'.
This is not the first thread on the topic... if you do a forum search you will see that I've already addressed this side of the issue.
Of course other nations are accountable and should be held accountable for the plight of their people. Unfortunately, those nations are also highly corrupt. Don't lose sight of the fact that this burden falls squarely on the people and not the wealthly corrupt politicians. Again, they won't sit there and starve to death without doing anything to fix their own personal situation. If the government doesn't help them they will do whatever is needed to help themselves. And that is exactly what they do.
Visiting is different than coming here to work
For everyone making the same point...
Here it is as clearly as I am capable of stating it:You cannot lump illegal immigrants with criminals
Murder is a crime.
Stealing is a crime.
Public intoxication is a crime.
These are all criminal actions,
and those who commit crimes
are criminals. While it is true
that murder is much worse
than either public intoxication
or stealing, they are all crimes
nonetheless.
Illegal aliens are not (usually)
murderers, rapists, or even
public drunks, but they are
criminals nonetheless. No
matter how badly they
suffer, no matter how good
their intentions are, illegal
aliens are committing a crime.
Do you forgive a man for holding up a bank if he's just trying to improve his family's situation?
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