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  1. #76
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    Why do you keep bringing up the point about indefinitely suspending the vote? You're just finding something to argue after I blasted your theory that they were extending debate for some concocted noble reason of enlightening others to the evil ways of Fortas.

    You're right, the rules were different. I've already said that. Yes, a vote would've had to have come eventually under those rules. But thats exactly why Griffin used the timing he did to enact it. He knew LBJ as a lame duck would back down. He knew a filibuster for a nominee, which was unprecedented, would actually work despite not being able to suspend indefinitely. Which is why LBJ said, "If I had another term, things would've been different". LBJ knew if he had the time and the political capital he could've left Fortas' nomination till after the election and he would've probably gone through.

    But that doesn't change that....

    The spirit of both filibusters were the same. Repubs wanted to derail the nomination of Fortas because they believed he was too chumy with LBJ. And Dems thought the same thing for a few of Bush's nominees.


    You can't keep pretending like the Repubs used the filibuster any differently. They didn't use it to further a debate to expose new evidence. They used it to block the nomination from advancing because they feared Fortas was too partisan to be an impartial check of power. In fact thats exactly why the Democrats did it in 2003.

    Why the double standard?

    Cause they're democrats thats why. It's honorable when Republicans do it for their principles, but its not when the other side does it. Admit it.

  2. #77
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    Rove's Blind Spot
    __

    By Harold Meyerson
    Wednesday, August 15, 2007; A11

    Decades from now, historians will have trouble fathoming why Karl Rove's contemporaries hailed him as a genius. An expert prac ioner of wedge politics, in the tradition of Lee A er? Sure. But architect of an enduring Republican majority? The great realigner? What were the pundits of 2002 and 2004 smoking?

    In fact, Rove exhibited astonishing blindness toward some of America's most basic political realities -- in particular, a pervasive economic insecurity that undercut the prospects of the Bush administration's program.

    In a brilliant and fortuitously timed article on Rove in the new issue of the Atlantic, reporter Josh Green (a former American Prospect colleague of mine) notes that realignments in American politics tend to emerge from periods of wrenching change: the Depression of the '30s, the racial and cultural revolutions of the '60s. They are not willed by political consultants who fancy themselves deep thinkers.

    Rove always believed that with the right mix of legislation and presidential leadership, cons uencies could be moved from the Democratic to the Republican column, much like pieces on a chessboard. Green identifies five policy initiatives that Rove thought would create a Republican majority and that he and George W. Bush decided to pursue:

    establishing educational standards,
    pursuing faith-based initiatives,
    reforming immigration laws,
    creating health savings accounts and
    privatizing Social Security.

    Thus would the Republicans destroy teachers unions, mobilize the moralists and win over Hispanics. Thus would they break the link between the American people and government programs and create a world in which Americans' well-being and security depended almost entirely on the markets.


    Early in Bill Clinton's presidency, Weekly Standard editor William Kristol had persuaded Republicans to oppose Clinton's health-care program on political grounds: The provision of universal health coverage would permanently help the Democrats and hence should be defeated. A couple of years later, then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich, in tandem with Republican strategist Grover Norquist, began proclaiming that government programs such as Medicare and Social Security were artifacts of the industrial age, and, now that the economy had moved on to the information age, Americans would rely on the market for their security if only those creaking relics from the New Deal and the Great Society could be disposed of. By 2000, Rove and Bush had joined these peewee league intellectuals in arguing that the economic changes of our age required the lowering of the old safety nets.

    In the wake of Bush's 2004 reelection, Green reports, Rove, newly promoted by Bush to domestic policy czar, concluded that the time for this realignment had come. Green do ents Rove's mistakes as he set out to undo the major social legislation of the mid-20th century:

    He assumed congressional and public support for policies on which Bush had not campaigned;

    his relations with Republican members of Congress were abysmal;

    his incessant campaigning against the Democrats ensured that there would be no bipartisan support for programs that entailed considerable political risk.

    But Rove's miscalculations were actually more fundamental than those that Green enumerates. At bottom, he and Bush overlooked the epochal growth of economic insecurity in America. They refused to see that the very economic changes they celebrated had made Americans understandably nervous and pessimistic to an unprecedented extent about the nation's long-term economic prospects. And so, as employers were abandoning their provision of retirement benefits to employees, Bush and Rove called for abandoning the government's commitment as well. At a time when ordinary Americans' incomes were stagnating, and when growing numbers of Americans understood that they were in some nebulous compe ion with millions of lower-paid workers in other lands that the government seemed powerless to mitigate, Bush and Rove proposed legalizing the undo ented immigrants who had flowed across the border.

    Could there have been a more profound misreading of the American temper? As political and policy czar rolled into one, Rove should have understood that Americans craved the security of a controllable border and a predictable and decent income. Instead, Rove's wish was father to the thought: Realignment required dismantling Democratic programs. It required winning more Hispanic voters (never mind that on economic issues, Hispanic voters are resoundingly liberal). It required the Rove program. Damn the torpedoes.

    In the end, the Rove program for Bush's second term was stillborn for lack of support. And yet Rove and Bush seem to have bequeathed their tone-deafness on economic insecurity to a number of the Republicans seeking Bush's job. Rudy Giuliani, for example, has proposed a health-care plan modeled on Bush's: It has no expanded role for government, relies on the market and will not alter our current system or cover any additional Americans. Indeed, on health care, pensions, trade, the bargaining power of American workers, the affordability of higher education -- on a whole set of issues that shape Americans' lives -- the Republican field is largely silent. Rove retires; his cluelessness lives on.

    [email protected]

  3. #78
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    What exactly did Rove accomplish? All I've seen is an expansion of federal government power and expenditure at an unconscionable rate for an allegedly "conservative Republican" administration. The GOP will be lucky to win one presidential election again in the next decade thanks in no small part to his electoral strategies and their impact on policy.
    You vastly underestimate the South.

    Republicans wil continue to show strong at polls for three reasons (in order):

    1. Democrats havent gotten their together since Kennedy. Clinton was a maverick. With the proper amount of $$$, Clinton could have been a two-termer as an independent. Beyond that, they roll out some new drone on some flimsy pedestal on some flimsy, fly-by-night talking point.

    2. Ingrained thinking. People are either Red or Blue in most cases. Independant thought is all time low country-wide. Have no faith in a country's citizenry to untangle political half-lies from truth where most individuals cant name the vice president, but certainly know what Tom and Kate's first baby's eye color is.

    3. Scare tactics. The War on Terror guarantees Republican turnout every election at every poll across the country. Most Americans believe they and their precious family are targets of foreign terrorism every, single day. You know, because the public library in Iowa is totally a target for Al Queda and the like because of the "shock" value of such a high volume. Americans are so in love with themsleves and find their singular existence so important to the world, that they are in fact convinced they could be next. When in actuality, you have a better chance of winning the local lottery than you do of being killed by a terrorist act. Dont tell people that though, they might find out its all a political sham to garner support and votes. Nah, people like to live in fear, the government was just smart enough to realize its better they fear someone else more than them.

  4. #79
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Why the double standard?

    Cause they're democrats thats why. It's honorable when Republicans do it for their principles, but its not when the other side does it. Admit it.
    You can dip that comment in bronze, scale it to size and hang it on the front page of the Political Forum.

    Lemmings is a term loosely thrown around a lot. But it always seems to come from the same sources....

  5. #80
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Lemmings is a term loosely thrown around a lot. But it always seems to come from the same sources....
    I'm wondering if people know what it refers to?

    Blindly following others to their doom...

    Just in case, from:

    Lemmings (video game):

    The game was unique and based around a concept previously untried. In the original Commodore Amiga version, there are 120 levels, and on each level, the player must guide a group of up to 100 lemmings (or 80 in many versions, such as DOS and Windows) home by giving individual lemmings various commands. Each level dictates a required number of lemmings to be saved, giving the player the possibility, often the necessity, of sacrificing some lemmings for the greater good. The "lemmings" of the game are small, green-haired humanoid beings that mindlessly walk en masse into any danger in their path, following the popular myth that real lemmings behave in a similarly suicidal fashion.
    I love this game. I still have my Amiga 3000 plugged in for it, and a few others that early PC games could never compare to.

    wiki; lemming:

    Lemmings will often migrate in large groups and as a result some lemmings will occasionally be pushed off cliffs or drowned in bodies of water simply by the press of their compatriots, or by the dimension of the body of water. And The myth of lemming mass suicide is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors.

  6. #81
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Why do you keep bringing up the point about indefinitely suspending the vote?
    Because that is the reason why the democrats usage of the filibuster against president Bush's nominees is uncons utional!

    Can you acknowlege that?

  7. #82
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    Because that is the reason why the democrats usage of the filibuster against president Bush's nominees is uncons utional!

    Can you acknowlege that?


    Ok whatever. The cons ution says the Senate can make its own rules.

  8. #83
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Ok whatever. The cons ution says the Senate can make its own rules.
    Yes, their rules for their normal proceedings. Not to subvert the cons ution. Would a rule saying we don't have to follow the first amendment be cons utional? Their rules cannot impede executive powers either.

  9. #84
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    Alright. sure...

    What part of the cons ution does a rule about how to end debate subvert it?

    Oh that's right. It doesn't. Thats why we have had filibusters since 1841.

    Are you arguing the cons utionality of the filibuster? Or just its legitimacy when the Democrats use it?

  10. #85
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Or just its legitimacy when the Democrats use it?


    link will die soon, im sure

  11. #86
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Are you arguing the cons utionality of the filibuster? Or just its legitimacy when the Democrats use it?
    I am only arguing that the filibuster was improperly used for president Bush's appointees. It was used to suspend the nomination process indefinitely, with no up or down vote. The filibuster is cons utional for lawmaking activates of the senate as one of their rules. Not in matters under When their rule subverts the purpose of the cons ution, it becomes uncons utional.

    This is why I pointed out the "nuclear option" only applied to the nominees to begin with. It was a plan to break the filibuster on cons utional grounds rather than a cloture vote.

    How would Reid use the Nuclear Option anyway? He cannot!

  12. #87
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    Ok. You're en led to your opinion.

    I think the filibuster is primarily a parliamentary tactic to give the minority party some kind of power to ensure a compromise instead of a rubber stamp. And in that regard it was used properly. Obviously 14 senators valued minority rights as I do or else they wouldn't have brokered a compromise to avoid the showdown.

    BTW I wouldve been against the nuclear option had the sides been reversed. Its important to have a judge that both sides think is acceptable, not just whatever side happens to be in the majority.

  13. #88
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Ok. You're en led to your opinion.

    I think the filibuster is primarily a parliamentary tactic to give the minority party some kind of power to ensure a compromise instead of a rubber stamp. And in that regard it was used properly. Obviously 14 senators valued minority rights as I do or else they wouldn't have brokered a compromise to avoid the showdown.

    BTW I wouldve been against the nuclear option had the sides been reversed. Its important to have a judge that both sides think is acceptable, not just whatever side happens to be in the majority.
    I found that wiki has an interesting piece on "advice and consent":

    The Founding Fathers of the United States included the language as part of a delicate compromise concerning the balance of power in the federal government. Many delegates preferred to develop a strong executive control vested in the President, while others, worried about authoritarian control, preferred to strengthen the Congress. Requiring the President to gain the advice and consent of the Senate achieved both goals without hindering the business of government.
    The cons ution clearly spells out whenever grater than a majority is needed, and judicial appointments are not one of them. Therefore, when the filibuster is used as a means of requiring 60%, it is uncons utional. Period.

    Note the words "without hindering the business of government?" That's exactly what the democrats did.

    Cons utional provision

    Article II, Section 2, paragraph 2 of the United States Cons ution states:

    The President shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
    Advice can be given, but not required. Consent represents an up/down vote, not a supermajority. It's pretty sad when it is obvious that the democrats keep outstanding judges from being appointed just for politics. I like a quote from an article led Nominations; Chapter 8: Twentieth Century:

    In 1987, when control of the Senate returned to the Democrats and, with less than two years remaining to the increasingly beleaguered Reagan administration, the Senate took special interest in the nomination of federal appeals court judge Robert Bork. A richly qualified, highly intelligent and outspoken jurist, Bork responded to his critics in a manner that sparked one of the most acrimonious confirmation battles in Senate history. Bork's doctrinaire judicial views undermined his initial support. Intense media coverage, including strident advertising campaigns by supporters and opponents, created strongly negative impressions among senators and the general public. The Judiciary Committee reported Bork's nomination adversely to the Senate, which rejected him by a 42-to-58 vote. Bork subsequently contended that the aggressive questioning about basic cons utional issues to which he was subjected would limit future selection of judges to those who had written little, and whose views were non-controversial.

    President George Bush's successful 1990 appointment of Judge David H. Souter, a virtually unknown federal jurist, seemed to corroborate Bork's view.
    It's pretty sad when the best of legal minds are not allowed to serve.

  14. #89
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    You are wrong by insisting that judicial confirmation is limited to a majority vote. There is nothing in the advice and consent clause that says the Senate cannot choose to have a confirmation rule by something other than a majority.

    BTW "without hindering the business of government" is no where in Article II.

    And I think if a judge's politics are that inflammatory to either party, they probably don't deserve to be on the Supreme Court. Chief Justice Roberts is considered brilliant, and he is on it. Compromise, compromise, compromise. But you wouldn't know anything about that.

  15. #90
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    BTW "without hindering the business of government" is no where in Article II.
    I give up. No Sherlock. That was out of the historical context of why it was in place, and the link was clear about it.

    Why should I bother when you cannot keep these things strait?

    You just don't care if they cir vent the cons ution. Fine. Why don't you just say so?

  16. #91
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    You shouldn't bother. Cause you are wrong. They aren't cir venting anything. You just dont like it so you make up to justify it.

    I knew that you weren't claiming it was from the cons ution. But my point was that historical context is just that, context. Your contextual phrase is not in the cons ution and neither is anything about limiting the nominations to a up/down, so how can a filibuster requiring a supermajority for nominations be unconstiutional?

    Wake uP!

  17. #92
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    how can a filibuster requiring a supermajority for nominations be unconstiutional?
    I'll explain it one more time. Senate rules cannot override the cons ution.

    Let me add this. Anything in Article 1 of the cons ution that addresses the senate is open to their rules. Using the filibuster for senate actions in Article 2 that changes the intent of Article 2 is simply a violation of the cons ution.

    The intent of article 2 section 2 is a majority vote for confirmations. Senate rules cannot change a majority to a supermajority. It is under the executive power part of the cons ution, not the congressional part.

    I'm done with this line of thought. It's unlikely I will waste any more time with you on this. I'm sorry if you don't get it. I guess you would be OK with the senate decideing to make rules that reenacts slavery. If they can violate the appointment process, then why not strike down the amendments freeing the slaves? All they have to do is make it a rule, right?

  18. #93
    We are the Championship ggoose25's Avatar
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    Anything in Article 1 of the cons ution that addresses the senate is open to their rules. Using the filibuster for senate actions in Article 2 that changes the intent of Article 2 is simply a violation of the cons ution.
    Once again you are making up. Does it explicitly say that in the Cons ution? NO. Keep spinning the cons ution to whatever way is convenient.

    Senate rules cannot change a majority to a supermajority.
    Why not? Does the cons ution forbid it? NO. So therefore Senate rules are NOT breaking the cons ution.

    Why are you being so obtuse?

  19. #94
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Once again you are making up. Does it explicitly say that in the Cons ution? NO. Keep spinning the cons ution to whatever way is convenient.



    Why not? Does the cons ution forbid it? NO. So therefore Senate rules are NOT breaking the cons ution.

    Why are you being so obtuse?
    Can I ask one question. Since when does one say they
    are going to filibuster something when no filibuster
    occurs? Do you know what a filibuster is?

    I would just like someone to challenge someone to
    actually filibuster something not just threaten to. Let
    them pee in a cup, their hat or whatever or go hungry
    for a few hours. Lets just get back to the original
    intent of the Cons ution. Okay?

  20. #95
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    And why the are you bringing up Bork in a discussion about fillibusters? He wasn't fillibustered. He got his up or down vote. It was down, and it wasn't close. Wah!!!

  21. #96
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    And why the are you bringing up Bork in a discussion about fillibusters? He wasn't fillibustered. He got his up or down vote. It was down, and it wasn't close. Wah!!!
    I'm sorry if such things are so obvious to me and I don't explain them well enough for others.

    It is how qualified he was, the way he was treated, and his prophesy of future appointments.

    Judges should be appointed by qualifications. That just isn't good enough for the democrats. They will fight tooth and nail unless they can get someone who either isn't a threat to their agenda, or who is a part of their agenda.

    Qualifications be damned.

    Besides, this is acually a thread about Rove, which got a bit sidetracked.

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