#24

[Medvedenko]

Are you a re OV....seriously...unless you are trying to stir the pot, it's getting pointless to continue the arguement with you. Comparing Kobe to Will Perdue, Derek Fisher is laughable at best. The guy averaged 25-28 pg while being a first team all D and averaging 5-6 assists and 6-7 rebounds per game during their 3peat. Yeah, I know we was just a scrub.

If Kobe had his career reversed and had his struggling team seasons early in his career and then winning rings later like Jordan, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

[oligarchy]

No matter what you think of Kobe as a person, as a basketball player he is second to none! MJ went thru several teammates for 7 years before the Bulls Sniffed a le. It's ridiculous to think that to be the best you have to make ALL players better. Even the great MJ didn't do that. Until he was given a team with a top 50 NBA player (Pippen) , A top PF(Grant) /Perhaps the best rebounding PF to ever play the game(Rodman), A top center in the league (Cartwright) along with various spot up shooters (paxson, Kerr, Harper, BJ) and veteran role players (Levingston, McCray, Harper, King, Walker, etc). The Bulls won nothing. He had players such as Oakley, Green, Gervin, Banks, Woolridge, Paxson, Dailey, etc.. and couldnt get out the first round.

When Kobe had all of the above, (top 50 player, spot up shooters and veteran role players) he was a major star for 3 les in a row for the lakers.

When it is all said and done, Kobe will be known as the best player to ever play the game. Surpassing Magic and Jordan. Deservingly so!

So, A top 10 dominant center in Shaq doesn't count for anything? Shaq was number 1 in FGs and FG% during 1999-2000. In 2000-2001 they were 1 & 2 in FGs. That's hardly a comparison for any of MJs teamates. 1 and 2 in scoring!!!

I'd hardly call Cartwright a top center. And the 7 years before they sniffed a le? His first three years were first round knock outs.. followed by a 2nd round knock out. After the roster changes they came back and lost twice in row in the ECF's to the eventual champion Pistons. His 7th year, 8th, and 9th year he won les.

[LakeShow]

So, A top 10 dominant center in Shaq doesn't count for anything? Shaq was number 1 in FGs and FG% during 1999-2000. In 2000-2001 they were 1 & 2 in FGs. That's hardly a comparison for any of MJs teamates. 1 and 2 in scoring!!!

I'd hardly call Cartwright a top center. And the 7 years before they sniffed a le? His first three years were first round knock outs.. followed by a 2nd round knock out. After the roster changes they came back and lost twice in row in the ECF's to the eventual champion Pistons. His 7th year, 8th, and 9th year he won les.

So we penalize Kobe for having a dominant center? Kobe made the game just as easy for Shaq, as Shaq did for Kobe. Shaq too, didn't sniff a le with some very good players. Not Until the Lakers traded Eddie Jones and inserted Kobe in the starting lineup, did Shaq win his first le. A le that would not have came about if not for Kobe's heroics vs. Portland in the WCF.

[Obstructed_View]

Comparing Kobe to Will Perdue, Derek Fisher is laughable at best.

...which is EXACTLY what you idiots are doing when you mention the rings that he got by riding Shaq to three les in a row. At best it puts him below Dwayne Wade on the greatest players list. I won't tell you Manu's a better player than Kobe, and you don't tell me Kobe deserves to be mentioned in the same paragraph as Michael Jordan, okay?

If Kobe had his career reversed and had his struggling team seasons early in his career and then winning rings later like Jordan, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

Yeah, wake me when that happens. In fact, wake me when he doesn't disappear in a game seven and we'll revisit the Mamba's greatness.

[oligarchy]

So we penalize Kobe for having a dominant center? Kobe made the game just as easy for Shaq, as Shaq did for Kobe. Shaq too, didn't sniff a le with some very good players. Not Until the Lakers traded Eddie Jones and inserted Kobe in the starting lineup, did Shaq win his first le. A le that would not have came about if not for Kobe's heroics vs. Portland in the WCF.

What did you say before? You said Jordan needed this player, that player, etc. Make up your mind. So he didn't need Shaq? If Shaq was Odom, he would win? I'm not saying that Kobe didn't have anything to do with the Championships, but the courses are just reversed and they had the same problems. Jordan didn't have the group around him until later in his career. Kobe had them earlier. Don't fault Jordan for his group of players earlier on the same way you don't fault Kobe for what's around him now.

[monosylab1k]

Shaq too, didn't sniff a le with some very good players.

I guess beating the Jordan Bulls and making it to the NBA Finals can be considered not sniffing a le.

[LakeShow]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins les too!

[monosylab1k]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins les too!

not six

[oligarchy]

So, Jordan wouldn't win with Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Rice, Horry, Grant, etc? I don't get your point. Are you saying that Kobe would've put them in the Finals anytime between the 84-85 season and the 89-90 season? What point are you making?

[Obstructed_View]

You give Kobe what Jordan had in players in their prime (Pippen, Rodman etc.)and he wins les too!

Wow. Give Kobe a team that won more than 70 games and he could win a le? Gee, what an incredible talent!

[LakeShow]

I guess beating the Jordan Bulls and making it to the NBA Finals can be considered not sniffing a le.

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls. So be it.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't know how the topic changed to Kobe vs Jordan, Kobe might be the best in the league today but don't mention him in the same breath as Jordan.

Jordan could be a better scorer than Kobe when he wanted to (see his 37ppg one season)

He was a better defender

Better team leader

More clutch

End of discussion.

[monosylab1k]

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls.

i do

[Obstructed_View]

Well if you call defeating a bulls team when MJ comes out of retirement for the final 17 games as actually beating the bulls. So be it.

If you call losing in the finals in your second year in the league "not sniffing a le", so be it.

[Medvedenko]

Basically what I'm hearing.....if Kobe wins a couple of more rings it will because he has better teammates and excues will be made. Do you even watch b-ball. Did you see what my boy did during their 4 final appearances in 5 years. You can't handle the fact that not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...but only you're the authority on comparing players....a guy argueing on a message board. Please, keep it coming, because my day needs more comedy.

[Obstructed_View]

not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...

You've mentioned that a half dozen times, yet you care so much what we think that you keep bringing your weak-ass to a Spurs board. Nice job.

[LakeShow]

So, Jordan wouldn't win with Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Rice, Horry, Grant, etc? I don't get your point. Are you saying that Kobe would've put them in the Finals anytime between the 84-85 season and the 89-90 season? What point are you making?

Of course not, Jordan would win with that group. Just like Kobe did and Kobe would win with Jordans group. They are both great players, the best to ever play the game.

Not saying at all that Kobe would lead the teams that Jordan had before his le run to the championship. My point, you just can't throw 12 players on a team and expect him to make everyone better, just like Jordan didn't in his early years. Until the Lakers get better players to play with Kobe, you can't expect him to win les every year and you can not judge his greatness by him making his teammates better.

[Obstructed_View]

Until the Lakers get better players to play with Kobe, you can't expect him to score more than one point in the second half of a game seven and you can not call him a loser just beacause he makes his teammates worse.

F

[Medvedenko]

Similarity Scores
Explanation of Similarity Scores

Most Similar Season at Age
Mouse over numbers to view names.

18. Tracy McGrady (857)
19. Carmelo Anthony (909) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
20. Ron Artest (892) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
21. Michael Jordan (939) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
22. Tracy McGrady (928) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
23. Mark Aguirre (951) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
24. Michael Jordan (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
25. Chris Mullin (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
26. Paul Pierce (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
27. Michael Jordan (905) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
28. Michael Jordan (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Most Similar Season
Mouse over numbers to view names.

1996-97. Winford Boynes, 1979-80 (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1997-98. Jerry Stackhouse, 1997-98 (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1998-99. Mitch Richmond, 1990-91 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1999-00. Ron Harper, 1989-90 (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2000-01. Michael Jordan, 1984-85 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2001-02. Paul Pierce, 2006-07 (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2002-03. Michael Jordan, 1991-92 (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2003-04. Michael Jordan, 1984-85 (953) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2004-05. Paul Pierce, 2003-04 (946) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2005-06. Michael Jordan, 1986-87 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2006-07. Michael Jordan, 1997-98 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Kobe's career in comparison to the League based on Basketball Ref.com
The similarity scores were calculated using a method that is basically a hybrid of John Hollinger's similarity scores method in Pro Basketball Forecast, Kevin Pelton's work on Hoopsworld.com, and my own ideas. Let me state up front that this is a work in progress, and any helpful comments you may have would be appreciated.

Below is a list of the thirteen categories I used for the similarity scores:

Height (Ht)
Minutes per game (Min/G)
Percentage of team field goals attempted while on the court (%Shots)
Percentage of team offensive possessions used while on the court (%Poss)
Effective field goal percentage (eFG%)
Free throw percentage (FT%)
Free throw attempts per field goal attempt (FTA/FGA)
Percentage of teammate field goals assisted (%Ast)
Turnovers per 100 possessions (%TO)
Steals per 100 opponent possessions (%Stl)
Blocked shots per 100 opponent two-point field goal attempts (%Blk)
Percentage of possible offensive rebounds (OR%)
Percentage of possible defensive rebounds (DR%)
I used a player pool that included all NBA seasons from 1977-78 to the present. Within each season, I found the standardized score (or z score) for each player in each category. League means and standard deviations were calculated in each season for each category using player minutes played as the weights. Although all players were used to determine the league means and standard deviations, similarity scores were only computed using players who played at least 25 percent of possible minutes played in the given season (in most seasons this will be roughly 1000 minutes played).

Similarity Scores
Explanation of Similarity Scores

Most Similar Season at Age
Mouse over numbers to view names.

21. Kobe Bryant (939) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
23. Tracy McGrady (883) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
24. Kobe Bryant (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
25. Paul Pierce (916) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
26. Jerry Stackhouse (895) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
27. Kobe Bryant (905) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
28. Kobe Bryant (942) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
29. George Gervin (894) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
32. Dominique Wilkins (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
33. Dominique Wilkins (928) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
34. Dominique Wilkins (927) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
38. Karl Malone (816) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
39. Karl Malone (888) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Most Similar Season
Mouse over numbers to view names.

1984-85. Kobe Bryant, 2003-04 (953) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1986-87. Kobe Bryant, 2005-06 (944) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1987-88. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1988-89. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (938) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1989-90. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (935) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1990-91. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (933) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1991-92. Kobe Bryant, 2002-03 (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1992-93. Kobe Bryant, 2005-06 (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1995-96. Mark Aguirre, 1983-84 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1996-97. Vince Carter, 2004-05 (950) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1997-98. Dominique Wilkins, 1987-88 (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2001-02. Tracy McGrady, 2005-06 (932) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2002-03. Paul Pierce, 2003-04 (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Jordan Stats....

You make the call...I only post quotes...

[LakeShow]

If you call losing in the finals in your second year in the league "not sniffing a le", so be it.

Shaq did not reach the finals until his 4th year in the league.

[oligarchy]

Basically what I'm hearing.....if Kobe wins a couple of more rings it will because he has better teammates and excues will be made. Do you even watch b-ball. Did you see what my boy did during their 4 final appearances in 5 years. You can't handle the fact that not only me buy countless NBA PLAYERS and NBA COACHES have made the comparisons...but only you're the authority on comparing players....a guy argueing on a message board. Please, keep it coming, because my day needs more comedy.

The comparisons are there, as they should be, but he isn't better than Jordan. Sorry.

[monosylab1k]

Kobe's career in comparison to the League based on Basketball Ref.com
The similarity scores were calculated using a method that is basically a hybrid of John Hollinger's similarity scores method in Pro Basketball Forecast, Kevin Pelton's work on Hoopsworld.com, and my own ideas. Let me state up front that this is a work in progress, and any helpful comments you may have would be appreciated.



Jordan Stats....

You make the call...I only post quotes...

funny, not one mention of wins

[mavs>spurs2]

People forget that Jordan played in a different era, before they took out the handcheck rule, back when you were allowed to play tough hard nosed defense. If Jordan played in today's NBA, and had Kobe's me-first mentality, he would average 50ppg.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

how do u figure that?

We are still waiting on that midrange game. Every year they say he has it.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

Jordans team won 55 games without him.