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Two Playboy bunnies is better than 4
sincerely
bobby joe!
A "really old Celtics team" Now, that's rich. The 86 Celtics are universally considered one of the top 5 teams in NBA History. Bird, McHale, Parrish were all in their primes.
This is like saying the 93 Bulls were really old and aging. Hilarious.
Two Playboy bunnies is better than 4
sincerely
bobby joe!
"I cant possibly win this argument by comparing the players individual skills and talent, so I'll rely on team accomplishments, even though it's not relevant and by this logic you come up with illogical conclusions like:
Billups > Stockton (1 vs. 0)
Duncan > Wilt (4 vs. 2)
Rasheed Wallace > Karl Malone and Charles Barkley (1 vs. 0)"
Sincerely,
Ignigokt
How many les does Duncan win playing in an era with Magic/Kareem, Larry/McHale, MJ, Karl/John, Sir Charles/KJ, etc all in their primes? How many MVP's? How many all first team NBA? It's a little different than beating a Drew Gooden/Zydrunas Ilgaukas frontcourt.
Look up "context" in the dictionary. If you read the quotes by Elie, Horry and the comments by fans in neutral NBA fan forums, you can see that outside of SA tinted glasses, most pick Hakeem. I guess they gave it more respect though than just reducing the entire argument to who's team of 12 players won the most championships.
Did Chauncey Billups have a better career than John Stockton? Yes or no.
Okay if you want to say billups= duncan and stockton= Hakeem, then that's just a joke.
Hakeem wouldn't have gotten 4 championships in this era anyway.
His team is what got him there.
Duncan is a different story. He's won multiple championships with different team makeup.
Hakeem is not even the best at his position.
FACTS ARE HERE:
DUNCAN HAS 3 MVP FINALS FOR 4 FINALS (so he was THE leader of the champion team THREE TIMES)
HOLAJUWON HAS "ONLY" 2 MVP FINALS FOR 2 FINALS AS LEADER AND 1 LOST....in THE 80's (dont forget it)
First of all, this is kind of a pointless thread, but what the . Hakeem in the mid-90's was one of the 3 or 4 most dominant players I have seen. He was a great defender, who blocked a lot of shots, and he played at a time when there were some good centers around. He was better than Shaq and DRob (though not by much) who themselves are great players. But his team did not win with the same consistency as Duncan. You can't blame it all on Michael Jordan either, since its not like the Rockets were going to the Finals every year and losing to the Bulls. Were the teams better then than now? I'm not so sure. The Malone/Stockton Jazz were the best team in the Western Conference most of those years, and I believe the Spurs of today would win against them. In 1999 the Blazers beat that same Jazz team that had gone to the Finals the year before (and almost won), and then the 99 Spurs knocked off the blazers. If Jordan's Bulls, Hakeem's Rockets, and Malone's Jazz were so much better than today's teams, when did the dropoff happen? I don't buy it, and I think every year there are 3-4 teams that are good enough to win a championship. I guarantee you that the 2004 Pistons would have beat some of the "great" teams of the 80's and 90's.
Bottom line--- Duncan and Hakeem were both winners. Duncan has won more, but Hakeem's stats are better, and IMO he was a better defender. So take your pick.
And if Hakeem had played PF, he not Duncan, would be considered the best of all time at that position. Ditto for Moses Malone. If you consider Malone a PF, Duncan aint #1.
It's obviously a lot easier to be #1 at PF when your main compe ion is Malone, Barkley, and McHale than at Center when your compe ion is Bill Russell, Kareem, Wilt Chamberlain, and Shaquille O'Neal, 4 of the top 10 nba players in NBA history.
If you think that anyone outside of SA would consider Duncan the best Center of all time, you're just nuts. Just like Hakeem he'd be considered in the top 5 or 6 but no one would have him #1. No one.
A guy like Hakeem would easily be much more dominant and win more rings in today's NBA than the late 80's to late 90's when there was elite compe ion at the Center position whereas a guy like Duncan would be challenged a lot harder competing against Malone/Barkley/DRob/Ewing/Shaq, especially without a C like DRob to guard those guys.
You still havent answered the question. If you concede that Stockton is a better PG than Billups, than you are acnowledging that there are other factors in determining who was a better player than "1 ring beats 0".
But I guess you are right, that awesome starting backccourt of Kenny Smith (who?) and Vernon Maxwell (who?) just carried Hakeem past Barkley/KJ and Stockton/Malone in 94. Right?
See that's the sad thing you don't get Bobby joe, Shaq and Duncan are the best bigman of this era. Duncan has accomplished more than shaq, won a ring before Shaq with a less studded team.
Duncan in the early nineties wouldn't have backed down from ewing or Drob, This is the same Duncan who went up against Horry and SHaq at their peak as a tandem, with Robinson only logging in 13mpg.
Nominated 1st team all defense since his rookie year.
Yeah Karl malone isn't compe ion. Wtf?
Doesn't his stats blow hakeems out of the water, and in the same era.
Karl malone stats
in the Era of big men,
89-90 UTA 82 82 38.1 .562 .372 .762 2.80 8.30 11.10 2.8 1.48 .61 3.71 3.20 31.0
90-91 UTA 82 82 40.3 .527 .286 .770 2.90 8.90 11.80 3.3 1.09 .96 2.98 3.30 29.0
91-92 UTA 81 81 37.7 .526 .176 .778 2.80 8.40 11.20 3.0 1.33 .63 3.06 2.80 28.0
92-93 UTA 82 82 37.8 .552 .200 .740 2.80 8.40 11.20 3.8 1.51 1.04 2.93 3.20 27.0
93-94 UTA 82 82 40.6 .497 .250 .694 2.90 8.60 11.50 4.0 1.52 1.54 2.85 3.30 25.2
94-95 UTA 82 82 38.1 .536 .268 .742 1.90 8.70 10.60 3.5 1.57 1.04 2.88 3.30 26.7
95-96 UTA 82 82 38.0 .519 .400 .723 2.10 7.70 9.80 4.2 1.68 .68 2.43 3.00 25.7
96-97 UTA 82 82 36.6 .550 .000 .755 2.40 7.50 9.90 4.5 1.38 .59 2.84 2.60 27.4
97-98 UTA 81 81 37.4 .530 .333 .761 2.30 8.00 10.30 3.9 1.19 .86 3.05 2.90 27.0
98-99 UTA 49
Hakeems overshadowing numbers as a big man in the big man era...
89-90 HOU 82 82 38.1 .501 .167 .713 3.60 10.40 14.00 2.9 2.12 4.59 3.85 3.80 24.3
90-91 HOU 56 50 36.8 .508 .000 .769 3.90 9.80 13.80 2.3 2.16 3.95 3.11 3.90 21.2
91-92 HOU 70 69 37.7 .502 .000 .766 3.50 8.60 12.10 2.2 1.81 4.34 2.67 3.80 21.6
92-93 HOU 82 82 39.5 .529 .000 .779 3.50 9.60 13.00 3.5 1.83 4.17 3.20 3.70 26.1
93-94 HOU 80 80 41.0 .528 .421 .716 2.90 9.10 11.90 3.6 1.60 3.71 3.39 3.60 27.3
94-95 HOU 72 72 39.6 .517 .188 .756 2.40 8.40 10.80 3.5 1.85 3.36 3.29 3.50 27.8
95-96 HOU 72 72 38.8 .514 .214 .724 2.40 8.40 10.90 3.6 1.57 2.88 3.43 3.40 26.9
96-97 HOU 78 78 36.6 .510 .313 .787 2.20 7.00 9.20 3.0 1.50 2.22 3.60 3.20 23.2
97-98 HOU 47 45 34.7 .483 .000 .755 2.50 7.30 9.80 3.0 1.79 2.04 2.68 3.20 16.4
98-99 HOU 50 50 35.7 .514 .308 .717 2.10 7.40 9.60 1.8 1.64 2.46 2.78 3.20 18.
Hakeem was the lone superstar for a while and was a 24 ppg star. Not bad. He got better help and then his scoring boosted 5 pts while his rebounds declined.
Uh, the comparison you need to make is Malone vs. Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq.
Is it tougher to edge out Malone for #1 PF all time or to edge out Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq for #1 all time C?
If you think Malone's stats blow Hakeem's out of the water, they then blow Duncan's out of the galaxy because Duncan's stats are inferior to Hakeem's.
Do you seriously want to compare Malone's resume to Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and Russell?
You definitely dont want to use Defense in a debate between Hakeem and TD.
Hakeem blocked way more shots, stole the ball more, had more range, quickness and athletic ability, and also won DPOY honors twice in an era with much tougher defenders like DRob, MJ, Scottie Pippen, Alonzo, Dikembe, Rodman, and Gary Payton to Duncan's 0 in an era where even Marcus Camby got DPOY.
Debate offense, but defense is one-sided.
Thanks for bringing that to attention.
How ing re ed is it that Duncan has not won DPOY yet Wallace and Camby can off Bowen for the award each year? Some bull nobody wants to talk about right there.
Behold, Greatness.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=JDUSCQDP
Man that Ralph Sampson/Olajuwan tandom was killer. If only he didn't get hurt and Lucas wasn't busted for drugs. That Rockets team imploded.
Duncan = 10 all-defense first teams and counting
Hakeem = 5... his entire career
Sorry, but you don't know . Defensive player of the year is an irrelevant award. Marcus Camby won it last year on a crappy defensive squad. Case closed.
# of All-NBA first team defense teams Duncan would have had in the 80's/90's era at Center if he had to beat out David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Dikembe Mutombo: ???
Blocks: Edge Hakeem (massive)
Steals: Edge Hakeem (massive)
Def Rebs: Even
DPOY: 2-0
Functional set of eyes which can see colors outside of Silver and black: Hakeem
There's not even a comparison between the 2 defensively. When did any player go off on Hakeem in the playoffs for 38 ppg like Amare in 2005? Stuff like that just didnt happen.
What is relevant defensively exactly if blocks, steals, and Def Player of the year honors arent?
Duncan is a good shot blocker, but he doesnt have the lateral quickness to stop quick bigmen. That's what separates guys like Robinson and Hakeem from TD on that side of the court. Both were stronger and quicker than TD and much more intimidating at the hoop and could also be factors defensively on the perimeter whereas TD can't.
Duncan also has more All-Defense first teams than David Robinson and I'd bet $ if you took a poll on who was better defensively, David would win hands down. Even the DRob of his latter years was more of an impact player on D than Tim in his prime.
Two forward spots for all defensive first team. Only one center spot for all defensive first team. The fact that Duncan was one of the TWO best defensive forwards for however number of years running is a great accomplishment. Considering there is only one center spot for all defensive first team in the era of David Robinson, Kareem, Alonzo Mourning, and Dikembe, it's quite an accomplishment to get as many first team all defense honors Hakeem did.
You can't simply say Duncan has more first team all defense honors than Hakeem and leave it at that. And, saying the DPOY is irrelevant because Camby won it is just ridiculous. It's like saying the league MVP is irrelevant because guys like Karl Malone, Iverson, and KG won it and never won anything in the playoffs. But, you wouldn't make that claim because Timmy won it twice. If Duncan had won even one DPOY, you'd never say the DPOY is irrelevant.
If I'd realized that, when you said this:
"Imagine if Hakeem had a well established former MVP center on the Rockets when he first came into the NBA so he could slide over to the power forward spot and play against smaller power forwards on a night in and night out basis."
...that you meant that Timmy literally had a guy who had won the MVP award and had already compiled a hall of fame career, rather than having a fellow big man, a hall of fame talent (whose career would years later be derailed by chronic injuries), who had existing NBA experience and a dominant game, which you completely ing forgot about when you made the stupid statement in the first place, I would have let you have your re ed point. Yes, Ralph Sampson was not an MVP. He'll never be in the hall of fame. He has exactly the same number of 20-10 seasons with Hakeem as Robinson did with Timmy, IIRC. Please, point that out if I'm mistaken. It might distract readers from your lame attempt to re-affirm Hakeem's greatness, which doesn't require nearly that much effort.
I frankly expected more from you than to run and hide under the skirts of semantics when I good-naturedly pointed out that you'd forgotten about Sampson. Of course, you've been reaching into the bottom of the barrel to scrape for any evidence to support your claim, so I shouldn't be surprised you'd defend them tooth and nail.
Saw this post in another forum, thought it was relevant.
Originally Posted by Achilleus
Try validating your opinion with something other than...another opinion.
Try refuting the stats...
In 1993, Olajuwon averaged 26.1 points per game. In 1994, Olajuwon averaged 27.3 points per game. In 1995 he averaged 27.8 points per game. In 1996 Olajuwon averaged 26.9 points per game.
Tim Duncan has averaged more than 23.3 points per game in his career only once (25.5) . In total, Olajuwon averaged over 23.3 points per game for eight seasons.
In 1990, Hakeem Olajuwon averaged (in a season in which he played all 82 games) 14.00 rebounds a game. Tim Duncan has never even had a season in which he grabbed 13 rebounds a game. Olajuwon averaged 13 or more rebounds per game for four seasons in his career.
In 1990, Olajuwon averaged 4.59 blocks per game. Yes, 4.59 blocks per game... Tim Duncan has never averaged more than 2.9 blocks a game in his entire career. Hakeem Olajuwon averaged more than 2.9 blocks nine seasons in his career, and not slightly over 2.9...
85-86 - 3.40
86-87 - 3.39
88-89 - 3.44
89-90 - 4.59
90-91 - 3.95
91-92 - 4.34
92-93 - 4.17
93-94 - 3.71
94-95 - 3.36
The most steals per game Tim Duncan has averaged is 0.9. In his entire career Hakeem Olajuwon never averaged so few steals per game. Olajuwon's worst steals per game average is better than Tim Duncan's best.
84-85 - 1.21
85-86 - 1.97
86-87 - 1.87
87-88 - 2.05
88-89 - 2.60
89-90 - 2.12
90-91 - 2.16
91-92 - 1.81
92-93 - 1.83
93-94 - 1.60
94-95 - 1.85
95-96 - 1.57
96-97 - 1.50
97-98 - 1.79
98-99 - 1.64
99-00 - 0.93
00-01 - 1.21
01-02 - 1.21
Hakeem Olajuwon's career field goal percentage is .512.
Tim Duncan's career field goal percentage is .509 .
Hakeem Olajuwon's career free throw percentage is .712.
Tim Duncan's career free throw percentage is .680.
Hakeem Olajuwon had a career playoff average of 25.9 points per game.
Tim Duncan has a career playoff average of 23.9 points per game.
Hakeem Olajuwon had a career playoff average of 3.26 blocks per game.
Tim Duncan has a career playoff average of 2.8 blocks per game.
Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 1.69 steals per game in the playoffs.
Tim Duncan averages 0.7 steals per game in the playoffs.
Hakeem Olajuwon had a career playoff field goal percentage of .528.
Tim Duncan has a career playoff field goal percentage of .509.
Hakeem Olajuwon had a career playoff FT percentage of .719.
Tim Duncan has a career playoff FT percentage of .698.
Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 2.92 turnovers per game in the playoffs.
Tim Duncan averages 3.18 turnovers per game in the playoffs.
Tim Duncan is a great player, Olajuwon was better.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/hakeem_olajuwon/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tim_d...reer_stats.html
4>2
Spurs fans still bitter when The Dream embarrassed the "MVP" during the playoffs? I know it hurts, you guys must still be having nightmares.
Wow, fans who don't follow the Spurs seriously underrating Tim Duncan. But what else is new?
Nobody is underrating Tim. He's a beast and I think 4 'ships speak for themselves. But if you look at Hakeem, he played in a tougher era and didn't exactly have the same talent on his team that Tim had. Don't get me wrong, they surrounded Hakeem with the right role players. IMO, Hakeem's offense is better and Tim doesn't have anything on Hakeem's defense.
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