Marbury Defends Vick

[Jamtas#2]

i love it. All that and the only justification you can come up with is one is legal and the other is illegal. That is my ing point about asserting one cultures values onto anothers. Its a disgusting cultural hypocrisy as we wear our perfumes that have a trail of maimed rabbits in their wake, grab our winchester so we can go find some 12 point to kill and throw baby cows in boxes for months unable to move so we can get that meat oh so tender.

We those animals up for nothing better than something to hang on our wall, a pretty smell and a scrumdiddlyumptious bite to eat. But hey if people in the south want to do something cruel to dogs no way because we grew up on Lassi and Old Yeller?

I have an idea lets take a cattle prod to a baby cow to scare the out of it and then chase it down and tie it up or better yet lets put a strap on a horse or bull that causes it to have a convulsive reflex for a minute or so and see if we can hang onto it in front of a whole bunch of people. YEEHAW!!!

People go hunting for deer antlers all the time. I mean if you were to ask me whether i would prefer to be hunted down killed and scalped or be forced into gladiatorial combat I would choose the fighting chance.

This is before you talk about all the animals we kill in the hundreds of thousands daily so we can eat meat. At least we can actually excuse that with a need for survivability.

I mean if you really think that dogfighting is bad and needs to be stopped i think you really should stop and look in the mirror at what you by proxy allow each and every day. If you can do that and actually try to live by that then i have the utmost respect for you. That truly is noble.

OTOH if you cannot then you are nothing but a hypocrite that is no better than Michael Vick.

the only thing is that one is legal and one is not? That's all you got? I'll tell you what, let me do that mirror thing for you now:
I do not condone hunting for antlers. That should not be allowed either. I do not agree with animal testing perfumes/colognes on rabbits. I've worked with various dog rescues through out the years and am the current owner of a dog that was once terribly abused. Animal cruelty is disgusting to me and I'm glad there are laws against dogfighting.
the one is legal one is not, was just one of the points I was making in reference to how many people are trying to justify Vick's actions.
Shooting up with Heroin isn't allowed either, but you don't defend that by saying other people shoot up with insulin.

And damn, even if I didn't keep that same mind frame across the board in regards to animal cruelty, I'd rather be a hypocrite than a lying low life who abuses animals and would not say the 2 are equal.

[mbass]

You loathe rodeos, have a problem with hunting, feel that all nonmedical animal testing should be stopped, feel that the veal trade needs to be stopped, feel that the fur trade needst o be stopped, and see the necessity of banning dog racing?

If you disagree with any of that methinks your a hypocrite.

I've been to a couple of rodeos but I've never seen an animal tortured or killed for "sport". I do have a problem personally with hunting but one of my relatives tells me it's okay if you do it to eat - so I sort of buy that altho I would not/could not do it myself. I was a medical researcher prior to retirement and while I could not bring myself to use animals in my work, I do understand the rationale as it is in the interest of disease cure - vaccines, cancer, inheritable disease, and the like. The veal trade bothers me greatly altho I understand that the cows are treated more humanely now - not kept in cages. And as far as my last research project went - we used calf forelegs to study bone/mineral metabolism. However, the calves were killed for veal prior to obtaining them. As far as the fur trade - if the animals are killed humanely then I do not see a problem here - same as hunting. I will not attend a dog race.
The differences between your examples and that of dog fighting for "sport" is that there are redeeming qualities in all of your other examples. Dog fighting is done for nothing other than the "thrill" of the blood and kill which I consider SICK

[tmtcsc]

yeah.. you're sickened by my opinion. I'm not a dogfighter... in the sum of all thing bad, is dogfighting really that bad? I mean WTF?

These dogs are mean. they kill, they destroy... On a list of ten things that are bad in this world, dogfighting doesn't even break honorable mention unless Vick does it...

My point is yeah dogfighting is bad but really Who gives a ?

WTF dude ? I hate CNN. I'm no media drone and I think dogfighting REALLY is that bad and I DO give a . What is your argument here ? That since the world is so ed up with all its problems that we shouldn't care about dogs being bred to kill and hurt each other for sport ?

Why are the dogs mean, why do they kill or destroy ? Because they are apparently fighting for their ing lives and losing will cause them to be tortured even further.

Besides the fighting itself, its been well do ented that dogfighting spawns other crimes. For instance stealing other people's animals to train pit bulls. So, now you have other dogs that are not mean, killing, destroying machines being dropped into a pit for another dog to kill.

I agree that we have alot of other problems in this world that need to be addressed but ignoring the disturbing cruelty of dogfighting isn't ok. Its not just the dogs, its the people who instigate this stuff that are wrong with the world.

Like it or not, dogs have been ingratiated into our society as a whole. In some instances they have become part of our families...They display traits that some of our fellow man can't or won't. They can be loyal, show unconditional love and protect us from ed up people.

To not understand that fighting and/or torturing dogs IS a big deal is to be short sighted.

[tmtcsc]

You think wrong. Although the actual penalties for people who do are far far too lax. Nevermind just the animal lover's angle - cruelty to dogs is a tell-tale sign of psychopathic behavior, and is often a stepping stone for future murderers.

Ok, I did a little homework. From what I gather, different states have different laws pertaining to animal cruelty, NOT animal killing.

If someone euthanizes a pet, they are not murderers or killers. Do you see where I am going with this ? In some cases, animal cruelty does not lead to an animal's death. The person who commits the crime will still be punished. In other cases, the cruelty does lead to an animal either dying or mercifully being euthanized. It's the cruelty that is punishable.

Me thought right.

[mbass]

WTF dude ? I hate CNN. I'm no media drone and I think dogfighting REALLY is that bad and I DO give a . What is your argument here ? That since the world is so ed up with all its problems that we shouldn't care about dogs being bred to kill and hurt each other for sport ?

Why are the dogs mean, why do they kill or destroy ? Because they are apparently fighting for their ing lives and losing will cause them to be tortured even further.

Besides the fighting itself, its been well do ented that dogfighting spawns other crimes. For instance stealing other people's animals to train pit bulls. So, now you have other dogs that are not mean, killing, destroying machines being dropped into a pit for another dog to kill.

I agree that we have alot of other problems in this world that need to be addressed but ignoring the disturbing cruelty of dogfighting isn't ok. Its not just the dogs, its the people who instigate this stuff that are wrong with the world.

Like it or not, dogs have been ingratiated into our society as a whole. In some instances they have become part of our families...They display traits that some of our fellow man can't or won't. They can be loyal, show unconditional love and protect us from ed up people.

To not understand that fighting and/or torturing dogs IS a big deal is to be short sighted.

Very good post - but it's more than short sighted - it's a character flaw.

[ObiwanGinobili]

I find myself in complete agreement with my buddy T, and that doesn't happen too often.

me too.

And I have gone deer hunting. It's an arrow or a bullet thru the heart or head. If it;s nto a kill shot then there is a follow up ASAP ensuring a quick and humane (as possible) death.
I have yet to see a group of guys go out i nthe woods and torture, electrocute, drown etc etc deer. they certainly don't pit deer agianst each other in bloodsport, or 'punish" the losing deer with cuts and amputation.

the comparison is BS.

(while completely acknowledging that there are some ed up people out there who go hunting purely for the sport of it - ie the joy of killing somethign i guess - instead of the food)

[Slydragon]

I think if someone has 20 people given a dvd of a dog fighting event, over half would want to watch. Because it's on dvd we can play it off as I was not there I had nothing to do with it, So I can watch this.

I know if there were tapes of the dog fights from Vic I would want to see it, as many other people who say bad thing about what he did would watch it.

We like to see 1 on 1 fighting, Dogs or anything. That's why UFC and K1 is so popular now. We want to see someone or something hurt, knock out, beaten.

[Uncle Donnie]

I think if someone has 20 people given a dvd of a dog fighting event, over half would want to watch. Because it's on dvd we can play it off as I was not there I had nothing to do with it, So I can watch this.

I know if there were tapes of the dog fights from Vic I would want to see it, as many other people who say bad thing about what he did would watch it.

We like to see 1 on 1 fighting, Dogs or anything. That's why UFC and K1 is so popular now. We want to see someone or something hurt, knock out, beaten.

Yeah no thanks. Just because youd want to see it doesn't mean that most wouldn't be disgusted by it. UFC isn't a fight to the death and the combatants are willing participants.

[K-State Spur]

Ok, I did a little homework. From what I gather, different states have different laws pertaining to animal cruelty, NOT animal killing.

If someone euthanizes a pet, they are not murderers or killers. Do you see where I am going with this ? In some cases, animal cruelty does not lead to an animal's death. The person who commits the crime will still be punished. In other cases, the cruelty does lead to an animal either dying or mercifully being euthanized. It's the cruelty that is punishable.

Me thought right.

Your just splitting hairs on the wording. Murder a dog in front of the police in most states, and you'll be arrested. The charge won't be 'murder', but you'll still be facing some form of (relatively minor) penalty.

[K-State Spur]

Yeah no thanks. Just because youd want to see it doesn't mean that most wouldn't be disgusted by it. UFC isn't a fight to the death and the combatants are willing participants.

Hurting animals (or watching them tear each other to pieces) for pure enjoyment is a major sign of a psychopath. That's not meant as an insult. It's a psychological tell.

[Strike]

tell that to all the potheads behind bars getting raped by known murderers.

"it's illegal" come on now... the system! getting into a war without reason is illegal too but hey you don't see face bush serving time do ya?

If you disagree with a law, take steps to have it changed. You, as an American citizen have that power.

If you're not going to work toward change, don't about the laws with which you disagree.

[saporvida]

If you disagree with a law, take steps to have it changed. You, as an American citizen have that power.

If you're not going to work toward change, don't about the laws with which you disagree.

i love this reply statement.

i wasn't ing about anything... you don't see me here saying marijuana laws need to be changed or this and that do you? no.

and we as american citizens have no power. best believe that. every day a little bit of our freedom is taken away from us... the power to change laws doesn't lie within the hands of society, it lies within the hands of the people running the show. we had the power to elect a president back in 2000 and what did our votes get us? it got us a crooked man who looks out for his own gain and currupts our system even further, not only that but we got ourselves a cheat who somehow found his way into office. again we have no power so dont be fooled.

my point was that many things are illegal but should they really be illegal? you can be the big pussy and put your total trust into the system but i hope one day you wake up and stop taking the easy route by saying, well it's illegal.

[Taco]

MARBURY DEFENDS VICK

This thread should be re led to MARBURY IS A

[urunobili]

People who hunt go out of their way to kill the animal quickly and humanely. Most all the time they are also eating the animal. This is totally different than dog fighting, which is a form of animal cruelty.

the outcome is the same KILL AN ANIMAL so... Vick... you're ed buddy... just because people wants it... and that same guy that will give u a 5 in jail... will be killing deers next spring... tough i know... but it' america...

[41times]

i am actually surprised that some other athletes have not come out in support of Vick. I will bet you that 10% of pro athletes would participate in Dog Fighting if they had the chance, Mabye more. You can take the boy out of the hood but you can't take the hodd out of the boy.

The people who enjoy it think nothing of it. They liken it to Bull Fighting and they call it a sport. I disagree but that's my opinion.

The problem is that when a dog does not do well they punish it or kill it which is pure cruelty. And that's what people will not tolerate.

You can rape a ho like Kobe and eventully be forgiven but there are 2 crimes that people do not forgive:

1. Crimes against Children
2. Animal cruelty crimes

Have fun in Prison Mike. I hope you get treated the exact same way your dogs did.....

[urunobili]

i am actually surprised that some other athletes have not come out in support of Vick. I will bet you that 10% of pro athletes would participate in Dog Fighting if they had the chance, Mabye more. You can take the boy out of the hood but you can't take the hodd out of the boy.

The people who enjoy it think nothing of it. They liken it to Bull Fighting and they call it a sport. I disagree but that's my opinion.

The problem is that when a dog does not do well they punish it or kill it which is pure cruelty. And that's what people will not tolerate.

You can rape a ho like Kobe and eventully be forgiven but there are 2 crimes that people do not forgive:

1. Crimes against Children
2. Animal cruelty crimes

Have fun in Prison Mike. I hope you get treated the exact same way your dogs did.....

Animal Cruelty?? all Vick punisher's should become Veggies then... ha!

"For all the Cows" Foo Fighters!!!!!

[Avitus1]

Marbury better watch out they'll investigate his ass next.

Ultimately the differences between hunting and dog fighting are insane. There is no way to even compare them to each other except for the fact that in the end the animal dies. Its like comparing Boxing with Wrestling because in the end someone wins. However in both cases one is a legit sport and the other one isnt.

[rasho8]

Tons of breeders use those types of stands and they arent illegal. Ranchers cull their herds yet Vick murders dogs.

Fact is that Marbury has a point. You can go bowhunting deer for nothing other than their horns. Essentially outside of a culture preedominantly in the south americans see dogs as pets. The only issue is that not all cultures look at all animals the same. We look at cows as food for example whereas Hindus hold the animal sacred. Are they justified in trying to coopt our culture to fit their views? Why are we not decrying the eating of dogs in the Phillipines and in other regions of Asia?

Of course not and that is why I feel that we have no right to force other cultures to conform to our view of what an animals purpose is and all the while kill torture and generally abuse across the board. We as a culture still have trophy hunting, cosmetic animal testing, rodeos, dog racing and a whole slew of other things that are varying in degree of animal abuse with no real practical benefit.

It is this very type of mentality that has led to the majority of the world to hate us. I am part of this predominant culture in America but I realize that it is enough that we are ourselves and we need to stop trying to force our values on ohters except in the case of HUMAN rights.

And another thing, dogfighting was legal until 1986 in VA. Too many people act as if this dog loving at ude is some sort of longstanding self evident morality. Its not even remotely that.

I have a dog. I love my dog but I do not expect people to treat or think of their dogs the same as me.

It sucks for the dogs but a lot of things we do really really suck for those animals.

Oh my god.. here is the culture argument.

Its not your culture if its a felony, okay.
This is a southern sport that has migrated to inner cities and become part of the drug culture. Read anything about it and thats clear. The culture argument doesnt stand up.

Thats like saying a bunch of herione addicts are just part of a subculture that gets high all the time, its no different then drinking... except its a in felony.

And torturing dogs to death and forcing them to fight by breeding and training them for that purpose is illegal, pure and simple. There is no justification for this... and saying its his culture is bull and you know it.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Well child molesting is done "behind closed doors", so I guess that is a sport as well and should not be looked down upon. Stephon. Just keep producing your 10 dollar shoes overseas by little kids.............................................. ............behind closed doors.

[sandman]

I know that as one of the more conservative posters here, I originally thought that I would be a "give him the max" kind of guy. But after spending some time mulling it all over, and reading the plethora of extreme opinions here on the forum, I think my take is fairly middle ground:

1. Heavy fines and community service for breaking laws related to gambling, interstate trafficking of an illegal activity, and cruelty to animals.

2. One year suspension from the league for violating the personal conduct policy

While I don't believe that he should be Tiny's girlfriend over this, I do believe that his actions merit punishment from both the league and society. Society because he knowingly broke the law, and from the league because his gambling potentially placed himself and thus the league in a position of compromise that could destroy the integrity of the game (See: Tim Donaghy)

For those that are debating the hunting/legal angles, I have a question:

Are you upset that Vick is being punished at all, or that the severity of the punishment does not fit the crime?

In the grand scheme of things, Vick is not a pedophile, rapist or serial killer. In that aspect, being sent away for years for a crime that was not committed against humanity is severe as I noted above. However, just because it was not a crime against humanity does not mean that Vick should not be held accountable for not acting humanely.

Depending on your personal outlook on life, we are either the more evolved species or placed here by a Supreme Being to be caretakers of the earth and its creatures. A society influenced by either mindset recognizes the responsibility we have to behave like we belong at the top of the food chain, and thus laws are created as boundaries. When overstepping those boundaries, there will be consequences.

Vick's actions must be compared to the law, not to the actions of others. I have no doubt that all of us could find someone doing something worse to justify our actions that we know are wrong; however, that does not make our actions any less wrong.

In the end his actions merit punishment, but not to the extent that it will likely become. And unfortunately, the government's eagerness to make the punishment that severe will only serve to polarize this event into a social/cultural/racial fiasco instead of what it really should be: an individual knowingly breaking the law and being held accountable for his actions.

[Slinkyman]

I hear Iraq has WMDs! /marbury

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

My mind is not 'sick". I just don't agree w/ you. Some people get in an uproar over dogs, but can't treat their fellow man w/ decent respect. And the uproar is not limited to political forums. I've seen the t-shirts w/ Vick's name and jail bars in front of it. Underneath it says, "animal hater". That's overboard. While I think it was dumb to throw away 130 mil. like that, I do not agree w/ most peoples' assement that he's some type of skid mark, lower lifeform, demonic creature. Eddie Griffin got burned to a crisp... FRONT PAGE, Chris Benoit offs his wife, kids, and himself (now that's sick).... Front Page, Vick fights and abuses DOGS........ last page.

Ok, Vick is not an animal hater, but ironically enough I couldn't find any Vick Tshirts that had "animal lover" underneath. Weird, huh?

Does the name Sonya Elliot ring a bell? That was the lady who sued Vick for allegedly passing on genital herpes knowingly without informing her. Then he checks into a clinic seeking treatment under the alias of Ron Mexico. The suit was settled out of court so we will probably never know the full story.


How about when Vick gave fans in the Georgia Dome the double whammy two fisted obscene middle finger salute. I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying hi to all his loyal fans and those who supported him. Bad day at the office, I'll just go flip off some people "at my work place". That'll really endear me to my boss and clients.

How about in jan when he was stopped at Miami International on his way home to Atlanta and a water bottle with a hidden compartment was confiscated by security because he was reluctant to leave it behind. Though never charged, come on that should sound off some warning bells. Everyone puts their valuables in containers that can't be carried thru security or on a plane. Of course it's common practice.

Which brings us to his latest faux paux; being an active, participating member in an illegal dogfighting ring. Let me repharase that - he actually sanctioned, funded, ran and participated in the operation.

Ok, maybe Vick is not a skid mark, lower lifeform or demonic creature. What would you call someone who demonstrates no conscience, remorse or lack of feeling and empathy for his victims and those he has hurt? I believe the term is pyschopath. And this time regardless of whatever punishment he gets, he will also be proven to show what he truely is - a criminal.

[Spurminator]

Something I agree with Marbury 100% on... It IS sad that Michael Vick was built up so much. He was never that good to begin with.

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

I know that as one of the more conservative posters here, I originally thought that I would be a "give him the max" kind of guy. But after spending some time mulling it all over, and reading the plethora of extreme opinions here on the forum, I think my take is fairly middle ground:

1. Heavy fines and community service for breaking laws related to gambling, interstate trafficking of an illegal activity, and cruelty to animals.

2. One year suspension from the league for violating the personal conduct policy

While I don't believe that he should be Tiny's girlfriend over this, I do believe that his actions merit punishment from both the league and society. Society because he knowingly broke the law, and from the league because his gambling potentially placed himself and thus the league in a position of compromise that could destroy the integrity of the game (See: Tim Donaghy)

For those that are debating the hunting/legal angles, I have a question:

Are you upset that Vick is being punished at all, or that the severity of the punishment does not fit the crime?

In the grand scheme of things, Vick is not a pedophile, rapist or serial killer. In that aspect, being sent away for years for a crime that was not committed against humanity is severe as I noted above. However, just because it was not a crime against humanity does not mean that Vick should not be held accountable for not acting humanely.

Depending on your personal outlook on life, we are either the more evolved species or placed here by a Supreme Being to be caretakers of the earth and its creatures. A society influenced by either mindset recognizes the responsibility we have to behave like we belong at the top of the food chain, and thus laws are created as boundaries. When overstepping those boundaries, there will be consequences.

Vick's actions must be compared to the law, not to the actions of others. I have no doubt that all of us could find someone doing something worse to justify our actions that we know are wrong; however, that does not make our actions any less wrong.

In the end his actions merit punishment, but not to the extent that it will likely become. And unfortunately, the government's eagerness to make the punishment that severe will only serve to polarize this event into a social/cultural/racial fiasco instead of what it really should be: an individual knowingly breaking the law and being held accountable for his actions.

Good take and all good points.

He should be convicted, and whatever sentence the courts in that jurisdiction see fit to assess as punishment is fine as long as he is convicted. He knowingly broke the law. I wouldn't be bothered if all he got was heavy fines and community service and a record. But it also would not bother me if he did in fact end up as Tiny's biatch.

A one year suspension from the league for violating the personal conduct policy should be sufficient. But for all intent and purposes his career is probably done. What team owner is going to want him on the payroll. It would be a public relations nightmare. I think the Falcons are tired of this guy and just awaiting the out come of this case to give him the boot.

While Vick is not a pedophile, rapist or seriel killer, no reasonable person would try to equate anything that Vick has done or has been alleged to have done to those offenses but he should be punished. To try to equate the two is ludicrous. However that should not diminish the atrocities that were committed on dogs, squirrels, wombats, humans, (insert favorite animal here) that were committed by him.

[mardigan]

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/new...r6l2lg0&src=ap


Pit Bulls at Vick's House Face Deadline
Updated 5:18 AM ET August 23, 2007


By ZINIE CHEN SAMPSON

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - More than 50 pit bulls seized from Michael Vick's property face a Thursday deadline to be claimed. If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized.

Federal prosecutors filed court do ents last month to condemn 53 pit bulls seized in April as part of the investigation into dogfighting on the Vick's property. No one has claimed any of the dogs, which are being held at several unspecified shelters in eastern Virginia, the U.S. Attorney's office said Wednesday.

The civil complaint filed by federal prosecutors does not name the Atlanta Falcons quarterback and is separate from the criminal case against him. But it does state the pit bulls were part of the dogfighting operation known as "Bad Newz Kennels," which Vick and three cohorts are accused of operating.

Also included in the do ent are detailed allegations about the nature of the animals' training regimen and the dogfights occurring at Vick's property at 1915 Moonlight Road in Surry County.

The government filed three public civil forfeiture notices in a Richmond newspaper to publicize the dogs' confiscation, and the deadline for claims is 30 days after the appearance of the final notice, filed July 24.

Federal prosecutors declined to comment Wednesday on the seized dogs. Typically, when confiscated property goes unclaimed, the government asks the court to have the items declared forfeited. In this case, U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson will make the final decision on the dogs' fate.

"There's no dispute over who owns the dogs," said Daphna Nachminovitch, a spokeswoman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "Obviously this is not going to be a process where someone steps forward and says, 'This is my dog, can I have her back, please?' "

Though Hudson, who also is handling Vick's criminal case, will determine what becomes of the pit bulls, Nachminovitch said that it's likely that they will be euthanized because they're not adoptable as pets.

"These dogs are a ticking time bomb," she said. "Rehabilitating fighting dogs is not in the cards. It's widely accepted that euthanasia is the most humane thing for them."

Vick, 27, said through a lawyer this week that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. He is scheduled to enter his plea agreement Monday and could face up to five years in prison.

Three Vick associates have pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and agreed to testify against him if the case went to trial. They said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the Bad Newz Kennels enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs by various means, including drowning and hanging.

The locations of the shelters holding the dogs haven't been disclosed out of concern that the animals could be stolen, Nachminovitch said.

"They are a hot commodity in the world of dogfighting," she said.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.