Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[FromWayDowntown]

I think the Spurs have, in a sense, cheapened the meaning of retiring a player's jersey and made it virtually impossible for themselves to avoid retirements of non-superstars as things go forward.

With that said, the retirement of AJ's jersey was just a matter of time. It does ensure that Manu, Tony, and Bruce Bowen (to say nothing of Popovich) will have similar ceremonies in their futures, because I think most reasonable Spurs fans would immediately argue that those guys have had a greater impact on this franchise's successes than AJ did.

The question it raises for me is where does all of this end? Does Malik Rose, with his 2 rings and his on-going status as a favorite in San Antonio, deserve a retirement? If not, why is Malik really all that different from AJ? What about Robert Horry? AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to have -- Horry's resume with the Spurs already has more clutch moments on it than AJ's did. How do the Spurs justify retiring AJ's jersey while ignoring All-Stars like Larry Kenon, who played key roles on some of the very good Spurs teams of the early years?

I realize that there are good answers to each of those questions that distinguish those players from this one, but I think the questions must still be asked if only to try to figure out the rhyme or reason in awarding this honor. That isn't to say that I would take away a team's right to develop its own criteria for deciding who's remembered forever; and in the end, this one isn't egregious. But I do think there needs to be some re-thinking of the purpose of the honor and some renewed discretion in awarding it.

I'm guessing that this will happen either following a Spurs-Mavs game in SA or one night when the Spurs are at home and the Mavs are off. I think I'd prefer the latter, though it would be funny to hear Mavs' fans cheering for AJ being honored by the Spurs.

[Whisky Dog]

But as a specialist, Bowen has been All-NBA Defensive Team for the last 7 years, the last 4 on First Team. How many times has he finished second or third in DPOY voting? What he lacks in stats he has made up for in peer related recognition. He has not missed a single game during the "3 in 5" run and started every single game in those 5 years. He has also led the league in 3-PT FG%. And for being on a team where he is the 4th or 5th scoring option, he has averaged over 7 ppg. Not spectacular or even remarkable from a scoring perspective, but I will take an ironman, 3-point shooting defensive stopper any day of the week. For this team and its unique makeup, he brings as many non-statistical intangibles to the table as Manu.

And since we are talking a team honor and not HoF, Bowen would need to be considered in the TP/Manu number retirement talk. Consider it a mortal lock if they are able to repeat this year.

I agree that Bowen has made a lot of contributions to the team that definitely puts him in the mix for having his jersey retired. With AJ's getting retired now that should make Bowen a lock, but my point is that AJ's should never be retired. It should be reserved for the elite of the elite, the people who are the most responsible for the team and organization being where it is today. I do think that Bowen should be included in that list, but he's a lot closer to borderline than Ice, Dave, and TD. TP solidified his case with his Finals MVP performance and by carrying the team through many stretches over the last two seasons. Manu and Bowen are the two that could go either way, but I think they both should be there someday.

AJ should not.

[sandman]

I agree that Bowen has made a lot of contributions to the team that definitely puts him in the mix for having his jersey retired. With AJ's getting retired now that should make Bowen a lock, but my point is that AJ's should never be retired. It should be reserved for the elite of the elite, the people who are the most responsible for the team and organization being where it is today. I do think that Bowen should be included in that list, but he's a lot closer to borderline than Ice, Dave, and TD. TP solidified his case with his Finals MVP performance and by carrying the team through many stretches over the last two seasons. Manu and Bowen are the two that could go either way, but I think they both should be there someday.

AJ should not.

I think we are in agreement. Retiring AJ's number sets a precedent. Instead of having a healthy debate on how much Bowen will have meant to the Spurs in the Championship Era, we are almost required to make it happen because of AJ. At least Jr and Ninja had freakish career-debilitating illnesses that opened the Sympathy Rafter. AJ is getting there on what I believe is a posterity-induced misrepresentation of his "leadership" and "toughness".

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

ing lame. Maybe they'll hang a jersey with the knife sticking out the back, seeings that's what AJ likes to do when the chips are down in the playoffs and Dallas is playing S.A.

If Dallas beats us in the playoffs again and I see Pop happy for AJ I'm going to drive to SA and kick him in the ing junk.

Oh, and Don Harris sucks.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Didn't AJ refer to Parker as a boy being sent to do a man's job?

I don't feel that he did enough as a Spur to earn it, and nothing he's done since leaving has changed that.

I won't burn my Spurs fan membership card over this, but it's getting pushed back a bit in my wallet. It's now ahead of my library card but behind the Petsmart Value Card.

Don't forget his little whinefest when the Spurs and Mavs met in '05, despite Air Deutschmark getting every call under the sun.

Avery the Spur is dead. I hate this decision.

Maybe we can retire Jaren Jackson's next, he did help us win a le after all...

[sandman]

I think the Spurs have, in a sense, cheapened the meaning of retiring a player's jersey and made it virtually impossible for themselves to avoid retirements of non-superstars as things go forward.

With that said, the retirement of AJ's jersey was just a matter of time. It does ensure that Manu, Tony, and Bruce Bowen (to say nothing of Popovich) will have similar ceremonies in their futures, because I think most reasonable Spurs fans would immediately argue that those guys have had a greater impact on this franchise's successes than AJ did.

The question it raises for me is where does all of this end? Does Malik Rose, with his 2 rings and his on-going status as a favorite in San Antonio, deserve a retirement? If not, why is Malik really all that different from AJ? What about Robert Horry? AJ's legacy, as the original story suggests, is largely defined by his hitting a shot with about a minute left in a Finals game that the Spurs didn't have to have -- Horry's resume with the Spurs already has more clutch moments on it than AJ's did. How do the Spurs justify retiring AJ's jersey while ignoring All-Stars like Larry Kenon, who played key roles on some of the very good Spurs teams of the early years?

I realize that there are good answers to each of those questions that distinguish those players from this one, but I think the questions must still be asked if only to try to figure out the rhyme or reason in awarding this honor. That isn't to say that I would take away a team's right to develop its own criteria for deciding who's remembered forever; and in the end, this one isn't egregious. But I do think there needs to be some re-thinking of the purpose of the honor and some renewed discretion in awarding it.

I'm guessing that this will happen either following a Spurs-Mavs game in SA or one night when the Spurs are at home and the Mavs are off. I think I'd prefer the latter, though it would be funny to hear Mavs' fans cheering for AJ being honored by the Spurs.

Where does it all end? Hard to say. The great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's all had three HoFers in the starting lineups. Could we say the same of TD, TP and Manu at the end of their careers? It is a definite possibility, especially with additional championships.

To someone's point early, the "modern" era for the Spurs should see DRob, TD, TP and Manu in the rafters. Anything beyond that would have to be very subjective, and I think it is a short list of Sean, AJ and Bowen. I am comfortable with Silas, Moore and Gervin from the early days as a representation of an era. I am comfortable with Sean because of what he went through. I am not comfortable with Avery going up there now, nor am I comfortable with Bruce going up there at some point in the future were his career to stop right now. Not sure what to do with Horry, because what he has done for the Spurs he also did for the Rockets and Lakers. Rewarding his Game 6 heroics against Detroit would be the same as rewarding AJ for his one shot.

I think that after close to 40 years in existence once some of these players retire, to have less than 10 numbers retired, with a possibility of half of those being numbers from guys in the HoF is fair.

[SRJ]

The Hall Of Fame is the ins ution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

[SenorSpur]

The Hall Of Fame is the ins ution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

What the did Don Harris have to do with this?

[whottt]

Speak more to this "at ude" of Avery's. Was there an arrogance? Are you referring to his coaching stint or his post-Spurs playing days or both?

Both...

#1. He's always had a mouth on him and had a kind of an at ude of...everyone on this team is a scrub but me. It's never his fault...even thought it usually was.


Other examples...


Intimidating young and rookie players on the team with his, "it's my team" at ude...lead to him getting into a fight with Malik Rose, getting called out on the bus by Steve Kerr.


When asked about the Spurs chances with Parker, he responded, "they're sending a boy to do a man's job". A statement which Parker then promptly shoved straight up his ass.


When Manu was first signed, AJ's # 6 was directly handed to Manu by Pop and RC...at which point Don Harris raised a big stink and got all the AJ homers to call in and about giving AJ's jersey to Manu.


The Spurs then took the jersey back from Manu...at which point AJ gave his opinion on the subject, "let him make his own number".

A statement which Manu then shoved up his ass, as a rookie, much like Parker did as a 20 year old.


There are other things he's done...AJ was flat out cancerous his final season here, ing about losing his starting job in midseason among other things...






Point blank...winning the 99 le and the media latching on to the cute, "little general" nick name...went straight to AJ's head.


Then he went from a pushy bossy guard, to being an unjustifiably arrogant, pushy and bossy guard.






AJ had a fiery demeanor and underdog qualities that endeared him to a lot of fans...however, he's been ting on the franchise for a long time and these people have let their AJ fandom over-ride the Spurs fandom to the detriment of our retired jerseys.

Plain and simple.


AJ could have stayed a guy you pulled for after Stoudamire ran his mouth and AJ owned him...if he'd just kept his mouth shut. Insteading he started thinking he was a HOF caliber PG.



I personally wouldn't care if he was getting in based on his mascot value..., it's just that, for a guy getting in on mascot value, he sure has been a head....it's evem worse when people try to argue he was a great point guard. '

He was not a great point guard....has was good enough to be a barely passable weakest link on an NBA chamoion featuring one of the greatest bigmen tandem's and defenses in history...that's the extent of his greatness.


He could not shoot.
He could not defend.
He could not get the FT line.
He could not shoot FT's when he got there.
He did not get steals.
He did not rebound.
And his biggest crime...He was useless to pass it to out of a double team.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much...he did get a little bit better at hitting his wide open 15 footer, and he did become slightly more willing to take it...but that's about it. He was a liability in every other aspect of the game.


What he did...was use his quickness to get easy layups when David Robinon and later Robinson and Duncan were getting assraped in the post and AJ was the guy being dared to shoot....he wouldn't shoot it...he'd take it to the basket...and he was a complete and total liability in fourth quarters of big games, becuase he couldn't shoot, and he usually wouldn't even try.

The other thing he did was be bossy and tell everyone they were playing like crap when he was the guy least deserving of being on the court...




AJ could not even shoot FT's worth a flip...



Forgot the most important thing he did and his one true meaningful contribution to a Spurs le...and that was recruiting Mario Elie to play for the Spurs.

He was the leader of that 99 team...


I think his jersey is more deserving of retirment than AJ's...AJ should maybe get an asterisk on Mario's jersey or something...that's about it.



Mario Elie was the guy who taught this team to win les...like AJ he was bossy and would get in guys faces...unlike AJ, Mario stepped up when the pressure was at it's greatest, with more than just his mouth, and made the jobs of Robison and Duncan easier with on court contributions, punishing teams that tried to clog the paint...AJ never punished anyone when they attempted double teams and clogged the paint.

[SRJ]

What the did Don Harris have to do with this?

If you read the thread, Don Harris has been mentioned at least twice in connection with this. I was responding to those sentiments.

[barbacoataco]

That last post kind of tells it like it is. Avery was never a great player, but he did get better over his career. His credentials-- he was the Spurs PG on and off for almost a decade, and he was the starting PG on the 1999 team. I think tose credentials would get a lot of players #'s retired. We're not talking about the HOF. If you look at MLB and other NBA teams there are plenty of mediocre players with retired #'s. Avery is on the bubble but I'm not surprised. Duncan, Manu, Parker and Bowen should join him.

[howbouthemspurs]

That is so freakin awesome..He definately deserves it! All you haters dont know !

[whottt]

Bruce Bowen is 10 times more deserving of jersey retirement than AJ is...

These best thing about AJ's retirement is that it pretty much makes Bowen a lock...

I personally think Horry is more deserving of jersey retirement as well...

AJ's getting in for a shot...Horry had more in one fourth quarter/OT of a playoff game than AJ had in his entire career.

[Hemotivo]

Other examples...


Intimidating young and rookie players on the team with his, "it's my team" at ude...lead to him getting into a fight with Malik Rose, getting called out on the bus by Steve Kerr.


When asked about the Spurs chances with Parker, he responded, "they're sending a boy to do a man's job". A statement which Parker then promptly shoved straight up his ass.


When Manu was first signed, AJ's # 6 was directly handed to Manu by Pop and RC...at which point Don Harris raised a big stink and got all the AJ homers to call in and about giving AJ's jersey to Manu.


The Spurs then took the jersey back from Manu...at which point AJ gave his opinion on the subject, "let him make his own number".

A statement which Manu then shoved up his ass, as a rookie, much like Parker did as a 20 year old.


There are other things he's done...AJ was flat out cancerous his final season here, ing about losing his starting job in midseason among other things...






Point blank...winning the 99 le and the media latching on to the cute, "little general" nick name...went straight to AJ's head.


Then he went from a pushy bossy guard, to being an unjustifiably arrogant, pushy and bossy guard.






AJ had a fiery demeanor and underdog qualities that endeared him to a lot of fans...however, he's been ting on the franchise for a long time and these people have let their AJ fandom over-ride the Spurs fandom to the detriment of our retired jerseys.

Plain and simple.


AJ could have stayed a guy you pulled for after Stoudamire ran his mouth and AJ owned him...if he'd just kept his mouth shut. Insteading he started thinking he was a HOF caliber PG.



I personally wouldn't care if he was getting in based on his mascot value..., it's just that, for a guy getting in on mascot value, he sure has been a head....it's evem worse when people try to argue he was a great point guard. '

He was not a great point guard....has was good enough to be a barely passable weakest link on an NBA chamoion featuring one of the greatest bigmen tandem's and defenses in history...that's the extent of his greatness.


He could not shoot.
He could not defend.
He could not get the FT line.
He could not shoot FT's when he got there.
He did not get steals.
He did not rebound.
And his biggest crime...He was useless to pass it to out of a double team.

And unlike Parker, who worked his butt off and improved his game...AJ's game never improved much...he did get a little bit better at hitting his wide open 15 footer, and he did become slightly more willing to take it...but that's about it. He was a liability in every other aspect of the game.


What he did...was use his quickness to get easy layups when David Robinon and later Robinson and Duncan were getting assraped in the post and AJ was the guy being dared to shoot....he wouldn't shoot it...he'd take it to the basket...and he was a complete and total liability in fourth quarters of big games, becuase he couldn't shoot, and he usually wouldn't even try.

The other thing he did was be bossy and tell everyone they were playing like crap when he was the guy least deserving of being on the court...




AJ could not even shoot FT's worth a flip...



Forgot the most important thing he did and his one true meaningful contribution to a Spurs le...and that was recruiting Mario Elie to play for the Spurs.

He was the leader of that 99 team...


I think his jersey is more deserving of retirment than AJ's...AJ should maybe get an asterisk on Mario's jersey or something...that's about it.



Mario Elie was the guy who taught this team to win les...like AJ he was bossy and would get in guys faces...unlike AJ, Mario stepped up when the pressure was at it's greatest, with more than just his mouth, and made the jobs of Robison and Duncan easier with on court contributions, punishing teams that tried to clog the paint...AJ never punished anyone when they attempted double teams and clogged the paint.

[SenorSpur]

The Hall Of Fame is the ins ution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I was in Portland for a Spurs road game a couple of years ago and was shocked to see that they retired the jerseys of such scrubs like Larry Steele, Lloyd Neal, and Jeff Petrie. These hung beside the notables of Walton, Lucas & Twardzik. I remember thinking to myself, "Damn, did they retire the whole '78 championsihp team?"

This not to endorse the Blazers or infer that they've set some sort of league precedent or anything. I believe it's more indicative of a franchise that sought to recognize most or all key contributors to the only championship team they ever had.

[sandman]

That is so freakin awesome..He definately deserves it! All you haters dont know !

My son says "freakin awesome", but he is in the 7th grade.

Anything else to add other than "I said it so that settles it"?

[SRJ]

I believe it's more indicative of a franchise that sought to recognize most or all key contributors to the only championship team they ever had.

Well, there you have it.

Four of the five starters from the 1999 champions, after Duncan retires, will be hanging in the rafters. Mario Elie was very good for us, but he spent two seasons out of a long career in San Antonio. Unlike the other starters, Elie didn't spend most of his career in San Antonio.

There is something special about that first le - fortunately, we have three more on top of that, and that is why Parker, Manu, and Bowen deserve the same honor that Avery will get.

[SRJ]

BTW Geoff Petrie was not a scrub. He was a co-ROY who could really score until injuries derailed his career early.

[SenorSpur]

Well, there you have it.

Four of the five starters from the 1999 champions, after Duncan retires, will be hanging in the rafters. Mario Elie was very good for us, but he spent two seasons out of a long career in San Antonio. Unlike the other starters, Elie didn't spend most of his career in San Antonio.

There is something special about that first le - fortunately, we have three more on top of that, and that is why Parker, Manu, and Bowen deserve the same honor that Avery will get.

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

[sandman]

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

Even worse: Beno will have three rings. Does he go in the rafters? After all, if he was that bad would the Spurs have kept him around for for 4 years on a championship caliber team...

God, that is frustrating to think about Beno constantly failing expectations, yet having three rings. I think I just threw up in my mouth.

[Jimcs50]

Who owes me? I bet someone in here a couple of years ago that AJ's number would be retired....I think it was Whottt. Pay up!!!!

[SRJ]

Well ponder this: Should the Spurs repeat as champions, that will give "Big Shot Rob" 3 championships in the Silver and Black. Do the Spurs then retire his jersey?

Horry is a tough case, no doubt. He's a better overall player than Avery, but Avery was a starter. Additionally, my personal criteria starts with longtime Spurs. Robert Horry played six plus seasons for the Lakers; he would need to play the 2008-09 season to get to six seasons with the Spurs.

But Horry was so heroic in game five of the 2005 Finals, in a series that went seven games, that I'd probably say yes.

[Hemotivo]

what about Malik?

[2centsworth]

Avery was clutch his entire career.

His playoff numbers always increased over his regular. Plus, he consistently hit big time jump shots in crucial situations. game 6 against houston in '95 and ofcourse the finals come to mind. However, I remember Avery always showed up in the big games.

[2centsworth]

what about Malik?

i would bet the farm that is not going to happen and neither should it.