reading Wild Cobra's post has made me feel ashamed of the way I've treated Yonivore, and I'm sorry that he tries to represent your party.
Silly Cambodians...can't they tell the difference between torture and verschärfte vernehmung, er, I mean enhanced interrogation techniques?
A waterboarding exhibit in a museum dedicated to the genocide and torture carried out by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
Which Carter would that be. The chair maker, the carpenter,
or inflation maker. I am so certain now what happened.
Because he is the same one who said Venezuela had
honest elections.
give it a name, and people will believe it.
Now water-boarding is a gray area for my. I don't know if it should be called torture or not. I tend to think it should be considered torture due to the level of terror it is capable of instilling!
You are going TSA on WC
And he wonders why I had him on IGNORE for several weeks.
I wonder why you think being sodomized with a stick is no worse than a paper cut.
See Smeagol, there he goes again.
Chump, you know I never said that, and I explained that before. You are just being a jack-ass again.
Saying neither is torture is not saying them are the same.
Why are you poisoning the debate?
Last edited by Wild Cobra; 10-11-2007 at 10:56 AM.
You poisoned the debate by equating forced sodomy with a stick with a paper cut.
would it make a difference if it wasnt a broom but a vibrator?
what happens if the pow is gay and enjoys it without telling the agent?
excellent point. not torture, but sexual harassment
OK, you just proved yourself to be a total idiot.
Show me where I say they are equal.
You cannot.
Come on man, back up you !
I reposted your quote several times.
And the fact that you can't accept forced sodomy with a stick as fitting your definition of torture to a T is completely disingenuous and debate-poisoning.
Come on man, accept your own !
why do you spend so much time circling the exit?
whether an act qualifies as torture should be left up to the individual states to decide à la the 10th Amendment
Terrorists in Portland will just have to get used to anal rape by the CIA then.
Or the nuclear technician?
(note: Carter was the dry dock commander for the nations' first nuclear submarine)
Two questions that I have yet to get an honest answer from any conservative on:
The war against Islamic extremism, aka the "war" on terror, etc. is a war of ideas.
The idea we are fighting is "the USA is evil and should be hated and reviled".
1) How does indefinite imprisonment without a perceived fair trial fight this idea?
2) How does torture of any kind fight this idea?
I will await an honest answer from any conservative. Liberals have the common sense to know the answers, but conservatives can't see it to save our lives, and that is why we are arguably losing the "war".
Lunch break is over. I will check back in about 4 hours.
I don't expect to see a conservative with the intellectual honesty to answer my questions. That is ok. I am used to being diappointed with the "conservative" movement.
Now I'm not sure what you are saying here, but I think you are setting up a premise I don't fully agree with.
Those involved in military linked actions are not the same as a domestic crime. They do get a fair trial. Tribunals are authorized in the cons ution. They would probably get such tribunals much sooner if the liberals didn't try to get them open court type trials. Such actions don't necessarily occur until after a war is over anyway. I think those with such at udes presume tribunals will be fixed. The military has too much integrity to conspire such a thing when the truth of guilt or innocence isn’t going to harm anyone. Methods on information gathering and sources however cannot be revealed in open court as long as they need to remain secret. You want the process to proceed quicker? Puch for the tribunals.
Torture is not acceptable. Period. It is counterproductive.
A serious, thoughtful answer. Thank you.
Well let's see if we can arrive at a premise first.
We are not fighting a nation, but are ARE fighting something of a "movement". We can kill people all day long, but the NIE estimates have pretty much said that we are losing the battle of ideas. The slaughter in Iraq, Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, forced rendition, and all the other PR disasters have given the Al Qaeda (tm) brand a lot of credence in the muslim world.
There exists a spectrum of opinion about the US. At one end there are people who want to move here and become US citizens, and at the other end, you have Al Qaeda (tm) brand ideology.
Somewhere there are invisible lines between "actively seeking the destruction of the USA" and "willing to look the other way or simple money donations", and "neutral".
All of the aforementioned PR disasters have pushed more and more muslims over those lines. In a PR war, reality doesn't count as much as perceived reality, that is why this is a war of ideas, not of bullets or bombs. All the aircraft carrier battle groups in the world will not win it.
To this end answer these next two questions, so we can get some common ground:
If an American was arrested in Russia, held for years, and given a "secret military trial", would you accept a guilty verdict as "fair and impartial"?
Is the war on the Al Qaeda (tm) ideology a war of ideas or not?
Last edited by RandomGuy; 10-17-2007 at 07:54 AM. Reason: (edited to clean up a minor grammar error)
We are fighting religious fanatics. Who want to impose theirRandomGuy We are not fighting a nation, but are ARE fighting something of a "movement". We can kill people all day long, but the NIE estimates have pretty much said that we are losing the battle of ideas. The slaughter in Iraq, Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, forced rendition, and all the other PR disasters have given the Al Qaeda (tm) brand a lot of credence in the muslim world.
will on everyone who does not believe as they do. Some to
the extent that they will sacrifice their lives to destroy the
non-believers. This really is not a new thing. It happened
during the WWII. The Japanese did the same. The big difference
is that the religious fanatics hit soft targets, slap you might
say, when they kill the innocent, non-combatants. That is
the difference. You say we are losing the PR war. But are we
really or is that what we are being fed. Look at what happened
just recently. Israel bombed Syria and no one said a word.
Quite as a church mouse in the ME. Why? Abu Gharaib was
way overblown and politicized to the point that no one really
knows what happen there. I read all these post in this forum
about sodomizing prisoners, I don't recall any such thing
happening. There was a group of idiot soldiers, with way too
much time on their hands doing stupid things with dog collars
and making people remove their clothes. But that is covered
in other threads.
I would bet there are more want to move here thanThere exists a spectrum of opinion about the US. At one end there are people who want to move here and become US citizens, and at the other end, you have Al Qaeda (tm) brand ideology.
join the Al Qaeda movement. Wouldn't you?
Lets not use Russia. Let's use what has happened. WhenIf an American was arrested in Russia, held for years, and given a "secret military trial", would you accept a guilty verdict as "fair and impartial"?
the AQ has taken prisoners, given them the death sentence, without trial and beheaded them. Do I
consider this as fair and impartial. No! There is an old
saying, which I am sure you have heard. Everything is
fair in war and love. But obviously we have forgotten
this. They, AQ, is playing to win. Sometimes I am not
sure what we are doing.
Of course it is. We are trying to retain our way of life andIs the war on the Al Qaeda (tm) ideology a war of ideas or not?
they on the other hand are trying to impose their way of
life on us and others. We have tried to interject the
free selection of leaders into their lives, which, some say
is alien to them, but Turkey has done it for years. But
if we succeed in establishing a country such as Turkey
in Iraq we will have another pro-western country that
wants their people to have the freedom of choice in
religion and who they vote for. At one time there was
quite Christian population in Iraq, but the Government
along with Muslim factions forced most to flee. England
has quite a group of them.
But saying all this, remember something. We didn't
attack AQ, they attack us. And AQ is not a country, but
some countries have welcomed them into their country
and allowed them free reign to do as they please.
Ray, what do mean "let's not use Russia as an example".
Current ideas are just too fast for you now. it's time for you to quilt.
Your welcome. I'm more than glad to spend time with someone else who can be civil, and intelligent. I will share some of my opinions about your clarifications below. Like I said, I didn't think I would completely agreed with your premise.
A serious, thoughtful answer. Thank you.
There is a definite movement, and Al Qaeda isn't alone in it. I consider the radical Islam's a combination of people who interpret the Koran to suit their agenda, and those who believe the slant they are told. Then there is this seventh millennium aspect. The timing is right. 2001 was the start in the minds of many religions as the final times. Some of these Islamic extremists do speak of bringing the twelfth Imam.
Yes, but we are defeating ourselves. General Sanchez is dead on when he speaks of the media and our leaders doing us harm in this concept.
Most of these stories are hyped to produce propaganda. Many stories from the field have been proven false in the aftermath with no retractions. Reporters sit safely in their green zone hotels while paying informants for information that is often nothing more than propaganda from the enemy. The media may not do it as propaganda intentionally, but for the sensational aspect of it for selling the news. The soldiers involved with Abu Ghriab are a disgrace to the uniform. No question about that, and I will not believe they were ordered or given permission to do such things. At least from a command level. In my opinion, everyone involved should get a dishonorable discharge. Now I have little to say about Guantanamo Bay. I hear reports that have proven false, and reports that I don't know about. Like you say though, a PR disaster.
As for the credibility of Al Qaeda and others, yes. Our media and leftist congressional leaders are emboldening the enemy by their words.
I agree. What do we do about our enemy within though? If I had my way, I would have them rounded up for things ranging from inciting riot to treason, and court upheld 'time/place/manner' restrictions of the first amendment. You might say extreme, but do you disagree with me on the negative impact our own leaders and media is having? It's pretty bad when Al Jazeera plays clips of our own congressional leaders and media to motivate the insurgency.
It depends on the cir stances. First of all, they do have sovereignty, and people traveling abroad are foolish not to check the laws and customs before traveling. I wouldn't know in a non combat situation if this person was a spy or not. Without being there I wouldn't be ably to ascertain the fairness of any trial, secret or not. Not knowing are agreements with them, that's the best answer I have.
If it was only of words and ideas, it wouldn't matter. Real people are killing other real people.
I don't think we will ever completely stop radicalized Islamic extremists without flat out decimating them. This is a Holy war to them. Again, a seventh millennium thing. We have to show them that our military might is stronger than their God. I see no other answer regarding those already indoctrinated. They will fight to their death, so we need to provide that.
As for the Muslins in general. Most of them just live in fear. Remove the fear and propaganda, and they are some great people.
There was an interesting revelation I heard about some time regarding the Sunni's and Shiite's. They weren't killing Americans because of the radicalized teachings of Islam, but because they are repeatedly told not only by their propaganda, but by our own democrat leaders that we are 'occupiers'. That we plan to control everything and steal their oil. Notice as the truth gets out to them, as we learned what they believe, there are far less insurgency uprisings...
Our soldiers are dying because of what the democrats who hate president Bush say. They choose political attacks over our soldiers lives.
I would expect you disagree with me on much of this. Ask away...
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