Even in preseason the Mavs are getting on!

[Shank]

If this were prison, I might agree with you. It's a basketball game, genius. The point is to win, not to show who's the most manly.

Not targeting you specifically, OV, just using your quote as it seems to be a common theme.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little es. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I wonder if Miller had done that to Howard, who would have stuck up for him? Is Stackhouse the next in line? Maybe Howard's the only guy that will fight back. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[Hemotivo]

Video of the Howard/Miller incident :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0hR49nwCE

Stupidity at his best, Howard will be suspended for one or two games because of that.

thanks for the vid


maybe Josh is nervous because of the trade rumors

[RocketsDynasty]

If only that were the sole requirement for being a good basketball player...

well listening to rap gives you a re ed and adolescent view of compe ion. I'd love to have a look at what's in Tim Duncan's iPod.

[mardigan]

playground basketball is a mentality. And it's in the NBA. see Allen Iverson. see Tim Thomas. see Stephon Marbury. see Gilbert Arenas. and on and on and on.

Thats the stupidest Ive ever heard. A "mentality"
I bet most guys in the NBA have at one point or another played a pickup game at a playground, yet you hardly ever see stupid like hee haw did. Playground is hard fouls, not cheap shots in the back.
And all those guys you named, when have they ever pulled some stupid on the court like that?

[samikeyp]

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little es. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the le, who cares what people label them?

[mardigan]

Not targeting you specifically, OV, just using your quote as it seems to be a common theme.

But if Miller had done that to Harris and all of the Mavs just stood around and watched, then they'd (still) be labeled as soft little es. And every fanbase would again latch onto that and use that moniker throughout the season.

I wonder if Miller had done that to Howard, who would have stuck up for him? Is Stackhouse the next in line? Maybe Howard's the only guy that will fight back. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

I agree with you to an extent. I do think that someone should stand up for Harris, just not the way Howard did. Regardless of Harris flopping, players do need to stand up for him. Just not by running all the way across court and throwing an elbow at a guys back

[Shank]

My point still stands however. If (and I am not saying this is the case) Josh Howard and the Mavericks care more about what other teams think of them and make proving they are not "punks" their primary focus instead of winning a le, then they are not championship caliber. Personally, I think they are of that caliber, they are perfectly capable of winning a le and too good of a team to have to resort to being thugs.

That, of course, is still the focus. Avery wouldn't waste his time on the court letting his team try to gain rep rather than winning.

This is likely a case of Miller being the that everyone knows he is and a guy losing his cool and shoving back. Certainly there's a better way to handle it, and likely Josh will have some bull statement about how he's sorry. But he's not. He'd probably try it again if given the chance, but I'm sure (hopefully) he knows better than to do it when real games are on the line.

[RocketsDynasty]

Thats the stupidest Ive ever heard. A "mentality"
I bet most guys in the NBA have at one point or another played a pickup game at a playground, yet you hardly ever see stupid like hee haw did. Playground is hard fouls, not cheap shots in the back.
And all those guys you named, when have they ever pulled some stupid on the court like that?

If you don't understand the culture then you make obtuse posts like the above quoted. Not saying the culture is anything great or worth a damn, but it's out there and it's very much in the NBA.

[samikeyp]

This is likely a case of Miller being the that everyone knows he is

This part, we can all agree on!

And I am all for sticking up for teammates, but you are right it could have been handled better. In Howard's defense though, I also understand heat of the moment.

[mardigan]

If you don't understand the culture then you make obtuse posts like the above quoted. Not saying the culture is anything great or worth a damn, but it's out there and it's very much in the NBA.

Playground basketball isnt a culture, its a basketball played outside without refs and with less rules. And even if it is a "culture", you would think that a player would be smart enough to draw a line between the two

[Obstructed_View]

well listening to rap gives you a re ed and adolescent view of compe ion. I'd love to have a look at what's in Tim Duncan's iPod.

You left out the first half of the comment, dumbass. Are you saying Tim Duncan's never played competetive sports? And why are you working so hard to try to defend Stretch, because he's as clueless as you are?

Tim Duncan's not a re ed adolescent, and he isn't making stupid comments about being punked. You are. If you were any good at basketball and worried about your reputation I could take you out of your game in a second. That's what happens to hotheads. When you have a bad temper you channel it into constructive aggression or you get people baiting you into doing something stupid.

[Shank]

I agree that some opposing fan bases would do that but if the Mavs win the le, who cares what people label them?

Exactly. If they manage to win a le this year, this event isn't even a blip on the radar.

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.

[RocketsDynasty]

Playground basketball isnt a culture, its a basketball played outside without refs and with less rules. And even if it is a "culture", you would think that a player would be smart enough to draw a line between the two

that's what you would hope once they make it into the NBA.

[samikeyp]

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.

Good point.

I liken it to the Spurs finally won a le...the soft comments heard throughout the 90's lessened quite a bit. They came back a little until 2003 and now, the only people that use it are just uninformed.

If the Mavs win the le, that soft label will go away.

[Obstructed_View]

This is likely a case of Miller being the that everyone knows he is and a guy losing his cool and shoving back. Certainly there's a better way to handle it, and likely Josh will have some bull statement about how he's sorry. But he's not. He'd probably try it again if given the chance, but I'm sure (hopefully) he knows better than to do it when real games are on the line.

Miller is a of the highest order, of that there is no doubt.

And you are right about Josh, too. He'll probably try to spin it as if he were curing cancer, just like when he said he was "defending himself" when he forearmed Bowen to the floor.

My only complaint about Howard has ever been that he's mentally weak and can't control his temper. He's so far not showing any improvement in that area.

[RocketsDynasty]

You left out the first half of the comment, dumbass. Are you saying Tim Duncan's never played competetive sports? And why are you working so hard to try to defend Stretch, because he's as clueless as you are?

Tim Duncan's not a re ed adolescent, and he isn't making stupid comments about being punked. You are. If you were any good at basketball and worried about your reputation I could take you out of your game in a second. That's what happens to hotheads. When you have a bad temper you channel it into constructive aggression or you get people baiting you into doing something stupid.

I wasn't making any comments about getting punked. I don't agree with what Howard did. I was just saying that you don't have to "play in the NBA" to understand the playground mentality being displayed by Josh Howard. And deny it all you want, spin it all you want, but you made the generalization that anybody with that weak mentality is some rap listening thug.

[Findog]

I agree with you to an extent. I do think that someone should stand up for Harris, just not the way Howard did. Regardless of Harris flopping, players do need to stand up for him. Just not by running all the way across court and throwing an elbow at a guys back

I'd have a bigger problem with it if Howard had pulled that exact same stunt in a playoff game, but considering the stakes, or lack thereof, his response was fine by me.

[samikeyp]

My only complaint about Howard has ever been that he's mentally weak and can't control his temper. He's so far not showing any improvement in that area.

Which surprises me a bit with Avery as a coach. He understands the mental toughness it takes to win it all. He is still young though so there is still time.

[Obstructed_View]

Exactly. If they manage to win a le this year, this event isn't even a blip on the radar.

I think, though, that you can go back and pick out any previous champion and the word "tough" will come up when describing them. You don't necessarily have to prove it by punching dudes out on the court, but that needs to be a part of the team's chemistry and the make-up and mentality of at least a couple guys on the roster.

It depends on what you are known for and what you do. I knew the Spurs were going to win the '99 le when Robinson went after Joe Smith in the first round. When a guy like Robinson raises his voice, it's a good sign. When a guy like Milton Bradley does it, you say "oh, ". Josh is in danger of falling into the latter category.

[Obstructed_View]

I wasn't making any comments about getting punked. I don't agree with what Howard did. I was just saying that you don't have to "play in the NBA" to understand the playground mentality being displayed by Josh Howard.

Then why would you be going after me when I took somebody on for disagreeing with the very point you make above? Jesus, do you read anything??

And deny it all you want, spin it all you want, but you made the generalization that anybody with that weak mentality is some rap listening thug.

Actually, I implied that the person that made the following statement:

Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

was a white moron from the suburbs whose idea of toughness is listneing to Dr. Dre and watching American Me.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

[FromWayDowntown]

I disagree big time. Nobody tries to punk the Spurs the way they try to punk the Mavericks or the Suns or the Bobcats or most any other team. They know that ing with Tim Duncan or one of his teammates is a big no-no. They know that if they try anything, they will have to pay for it. Tim Duncan is the biggest security blanket in the league (except for, maybe, Shaq), the opponent knows it and his teammates know it.

Teams don't try to punk the Spurs because they know that it doesn't work.

Get physical with the Spurs and you generally just deepen their resolve to beat you.

[RocketsDynasty]

Then why would you be going after me when I took somebody on for disagreeing with the very point you make above? Jesus, do you read anything??

The point is I don't agree with all the idiots who immediately jumped on him saying "have you ever played in the NBA???!?!?!?!?" as if NBA players all have a different mentality than anybody else who plays basketball on a regular basis.

Actually, I implied that the person that made the following statement:

Maybe if you played the game, you would understand the element of "punking" and how it relates to mental toughness a little more.

was a white moron from the suburbs whose idea of toughness is listneing to Dr. Dre and watching American Me.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

And I'm saying that he's right in thinking that many NBA players have the mentality and understanding of "punking". Never said that it was right, I just said that it was out there. YOU brought up rap music and such.

P.S. What the does being white have to do with anything? You sound like such a ing moron to go bringing like that into it.

[1Parker1]

I don't get some Mavs posters in this thread. They manage to turn this incident into any and all comparisons to the Spurs somehow when it has no simliarities whatsoever. They also try to justify what their player did by putting the blame on someone else completely (i.e Brad Miller). And they're trying to justify saying it was good Howard did this so it shows he defends his teammates and people cant mess with the Mavs? This is so illogical it's almost funny.

Result of Howard's inability to control himself yet again: Most likely get suspended for the first game or two of the season, possibly costing the Mavs a game in the Loss column. Proving once again to the rest of the league that they way to beat the Mavs is to make them anger them and make them lose their poise...which apparently is still easy to do.

This is a preseason game, there was no reason for this to happen and there was no reason for Avery to play Dirk and Co so many starter like minutes (38 min?!??!).

[stretch]

If this were prison, I might agree with you. It's a basketball game, genius. The point is to win, not to show who's the most manly. In that respect, Bruce Bowen shows Ray Allen he isn't a punk every time they play by being in his face for the entire game and making him work for everything he gets. Bowen takes the crying to the media, the little cheap shots and shoves, the milked injuries and the boos and has managed to win. He only lost his cool once, and that basically cost his team the game. He's not likely to ever lose it again. Welcome to championship caliber basketball. Maybe Josh will learn that someday.

I'm not saying that the point is to show who is most manly. But people that take , always lose in the end. Show me one championship winning team in NBA history that would take from anyone, and not do anything about it. There is not a single team that would. Tim Duncan definitely won't let other people with his team. Again, I'm not saying anything about hitting people or anything like that. But just letting them know you aren't going to just take it up the ass from them. And there is proof that it can make the difference between being a great team, and a championship winning team. We have the 90's Bulls to look at, and their rivalry with the Pistons. They took all kinds of , but finally, the year that they all grew a pair, they demolished the Pistons. And the Pistons even knew, and had admitted previously that the Bulls were the better team, but mentally, they were too soft, and would take advantage of that.

I think you keep misunderstanding me, thinking that I'm talking about hitting people or doing crazy stuff to show people not to with you. If you actually read what I had said, I said that it was not smart of Howard to push him like that, even though Miller totally deserved it. But it was nice not to see the Mavericks just take from people like they used to.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'd have a bigger problem with it if Howard had pulled that exact same stunt in a playoff game, but considering the stakes, or lack thereof, his response was fine by me.

I think the environment it happened in would make me worry more. He loses his cool like that in a preseason game I'd worry a of a lot more about what happens in a playoff environment where everything will be more physical and the adrenaline and emotions naturally run a bit higher.

Prior to J-Ho hitting Miller from behind I was actually kind of impressed with what I saw. Harris took a cheap shot (he flopped like he was in an episode of The Power Rangers, but that's nothing new) and then got in the face of a guy about twice his size. Even if said guy was a top notch pusswad like Miller that takes some guts. I wouldn't have thought the Mavs got punked in that equation if they had just broken the two of them up.

If anything, stunts like what Howard pulled will only encourage cheap shots against his teammates if they think they can get a reaction out of him.