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Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? If not, then
well, if he made ESPN top plays, then they must have been special...
besides, i won't say that he's incapable of making a good play/throw. what i will say is that most of the good plays that he makes would have been much more routine for better OFs.
You simply cannot be objective and say:
a) he gets good reads on the ball
b) he takes good routes
c) he has good range
d) his arm is anything better than average at best.
Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? If not, then
Put Ramirez in left field in a park like San Diego or Houston. Then see if anyone thinks he is an above average fielder. I got nothing against the guy, but LF in Fenway isn't exactly a litmus test. That said, I don't think he is hurting his team, becuase after all, he is playing LF in Fenway. Our minor league park here in town requires more range, for crying out loud.
At any rate, K-State is right. He is a fairly poor outfielder in any objective sense. I'd still take him on the Tigers over Sheffield any day.
Jeter ends up on top plays about once a week, but any legitimate measure, he's a mediocre defensive player.Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? If not, then
Maybe so, but as with Manny, do you want both on your playoff roster as starters, or do want great defensive players who never excel in October when the lights are shinning the brightest? Answer that.
I've said multiple times in this thread that Manny's offensive production more than outweighs his poor defense.
Last edited by K-State Spur; 10-24-2007 at 01:56 PM.
It's the Boston hate. It's very fashionable right now.
Jealousy is an ugly thing to behold....seriously.
You label it as jealousy to easily. I'm rather indifferent towards the guy, but can you not understand why some people would be bothered with a guy who - despite being the most talented right handed hitter of his era - hasn't run a ball out since 1998? And he's actually allowed his defense to worsen the longer he's been in the league.
I can completely understand why - given the positives that he adds to the lineup - any Red Sox fan would be willing to overlook that. On the other hand, most Red Sox fans should be willing to understand why outsiders would see him as lazy and not respect a guy who doesn't give his full effort 100% of the time. (And actually, most of the Red Sox fans that I do know do understand this.)
The stakes are high when you are discussing a HOF player. That is, when you have a group of people that are admitting that Ramirez is a HOF player based on his hitting alone, it is fair to discuss his overall performance compared to the other all-time greats. Also, I agree that you have to put these things in context.
For example, if Ruth or Mantle had played in LCS and LDS series, one or the other would hold just about every offensive record for postseason play. Does that diminsih Ramirez? No, becuase he had to produce at or around the same level as Ruth, despite being RH. (In other words, he actually had to hit those home runs, not just receive "projected home runs.")
Another thought: Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player of all-time, even though Ted Williams has slightly better hitting statistics. Why? Ted Williams never pitched a complete game victory in the World Series. There is more to the game than hitting.
Ramirez is not a good fielder. When you start comparing him to men like Ruth, Williams, Aaron, etc., that is relevant. I'm not saying that anyone here has literally been comparing him to the pantheon of baseball gods in this thread, but I think that is where a lot of people come from in this discussion. That is, he is a no-brainer first ballot HOF, but he will be remembered as a guy who should have remained a DH.
I assume that the "jealous" comments were not directed at me, but I felt compelled to respond. Ramirez is not beyond reasonable criticism. If he played half of his games in another park, he would probably be revealed as a liability in the field. As it is, he gets by, which is why Ortiz is the DH.
And George Gervin could have played better D as well....what is your point?
As I said, you rarely have that great offensive player and great defensive player. Manny produces more offense by a more than a 10-1 ratio than his defensive liabilities give up....so who really cares, besides nit picking fans who hate the Red Sox? Ask any Red Sox player or coach if they want to trade Manny for any other player right now, and they would more than likely all decline, to the man.
Historically, that hasn't always been true in baseball. "Specialization" is a function of the DH rule.
You are WAY too sensitive about this. 1) I said Ramirez is a no-brainer first ballot HOF; 2) I said I would love to have him on the Tigers (my favorite team); 3) My conclusion is I would rather have him as a DH.
Pointing out that a player could be a defensive liability on another team is not "nitpicking." That is half of the game. I don't hate the Red Sox. I don't care about the Red Sox. I was glad for them when they won in 2004, and I haven't wasted any personal psychic energy on them since.
However, it is pretty obvious to me that Ramirez couldn't play LF effectively in Comerica Park. What is so controversial or hateful about that statement?
Not you, I was talking to the haters.
Not way too sensitive, just trying to win an argument....I love to try to do that, if you had not noticed by now.
I don't think their are many who hate the Red Sox as a team. Most people hate their fans.
I have nothing against Manny or his organization.
It's hate to say there are Little Leaguers who run the bases better than Manny does?
His fielding is average on a good day?
I guess VY has company.
I said BOSTON hate, not Red Sox hate. I realize it's the supposedly ' bag' fans that people are hating, and that is what is popular. If I had a dime for every time someone said how much Boston fans have become like Yankee fans (not true) etc etc I would retire. Although, the hate for the team supposedly becoming like the Yankees (also not true) is fairly palpable as well.
I stand by my assertion, though. The Boston backlash is alive and well and completely stupid, imho. There are bandwagon fans everywhere, for every team. I have lived on both coasts and points between and you wouldn't believe how many bandwagon fans there are. That shouldn't make you hate the fanbase or the team.
But along with the Boston hate comes a scrutiny of players like Manny unlike what they have had before. And calling him an 'idiot' like in this le is not only reaching, but a product of that backlash, imho.
I wouldn't consider playing the Green Monster to be a very easy feat. Just my two cents.
Or bandwagon Boston fans.
I hate that as well.
I've always hated Boston but after 2004 I hate them even more.
They think that they have always been better then the Yankees and they talk year after year.
Not all fans but a lot of them.
With Manny's 2 RBIs last night, he passed David Justice to take over 2nd place in career post season RBIs and only trails Bernie Williams by 16 for 1st place. He will break the record tonight when he gets 17 RBIs.
With Manny's 2 RBIs last night, he passed David Justice to take over 2nd place in career post season RBIs and only trails Bernie Williams by 16 for 1st place. He will break the record tonight when he gets 17 RBIs.
Plus he got another post game blow job from Jimcs50.
I played in the infield and pitched, so take this for what it's worth.
My guess is learning the angles and ricochets isn't easy at first. However, it is a good situation for Ramirez, becuase it helps his range problem. (Balls that would drop 10-20 feet in front of the warning track in most stadiums hit the Monster and bounce back toward the fielder.) Ramirez is pretty good at playing balls off the wall, but I have also seen him let balls hit the wall on one hop that other left fielders could have caught.
Like I said, Ramirez is perfectly OK in Fenway. He has most of his problems in road games. Oddly enough for someone with his hitting ability, he doesn't read fly balls very well. Having a green background (reading the ball off of the wall) seems to be easier for him. As far as I can recall, I have never seen Ramirez play in the Metrodome. That would probably be an adventure!
Again, you act like getting a blowjob from another male is some kind of good thing. I would never think twice about getting blown by a man....
I think you are gay, to be honest, not that there is anything wrong with that.
Colorado has a huge outfield...you will se soon enough how Manny can handle a huge area.
I think he will do just fine, personally.
Do your thang Manny
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