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agreed! but unless Tim is actually retiring at the age of 146, my post didn't quite have the effect I intended
Yup -- and, fortunately for all of us, it appears that Manu will play a significant role in any other championships that the Tim Duncan era might bring, which makes it all the more likely that there will be other championships. That Manu is not "The Man" doesn't mean he isn't great; it just means that his contributions will always be the sort that augment Tim's greatness.
agreed! but unless Tim is actually retiring at the age of 146, my post didn't quite have the effect I intended
I said before if the Spurs role players continue to play smart and hungry and keep the Big 3 fresh, and the Spurs are on track for a unexpectedly superlative regular season (like 65+ wins), then some individual regular season awards (like having 3 All-Stars, 6th man, DPOY) are possible.
What is more likely, though, is they hit a slump, Pop pulls in the reins and they spend the latter half of the season just prepping for a top 4 seed and the playoffs, in which case there will be very few awards.
I see it now. Good catch. That's two typos for me in the last 30 minutes.agreed! but unless Tim is actually retiring at the age of 146, my post didn't quite have the effect I intended
shame on you!
He has had some phenomenal performances over the years. Earlier in his career, Miller would often have to put the entire team on his back for 48 minutes in order for the Pacers to win a playoff game. The problem with Miller is that no one really knew about the guy until the Pacers became respectable in the mid '90s. Apart from some spectacular games against the Knicks, not too many people saw him play his best basketball. He has his rep because late in games teams knew it would be Miller who would beat them or no one, he would have an entire team collapse on him, and he would still drain a jumper with four hands in his face.
I do agree that Manu is pretty clutch but what is the last game-winning basket he hit in an important game? Seriously.
For the Spurs that's probably one of the only things he hasn't done yet. Hit a game winner in an important game.
It's kind of ironic in a way where he has the reputation where the defenses wouldn't dare leave Manu open, even though he hasn't had to hit a gamewinner yet in an important game, so usually I just remember Manu being involved in a few game winning passes in past playoff games .
There was one potential gamewinning shot...but...
I didnt mean it like he has no clutch moments or is a choker, my best friend is a hard core pacers fan so I've heard plenty about reggie! i just meant it as me being surprised reggie was being used as a standard, when IMO thats larry bird. I'd be interested to hear what the greybeards here have to say about that.
Larry Bird could do what Manu does in rallying in crunch time, AND will his shot in, like Reggie Miller's 3 barrage plays in limited seconds.
Just to be clear, the only reason I've argued the Reggie angle, and the reason his name has become so prevalent in this thread is that the archbishop of the Church of Manu equated Reggie's NBA exploits to a pile of , mainly because he hadn't won a ring, as if Reggie wasn't in the same class with Jack Haley because Jack has one.
Game winning baskets can be defined as being clutch, but clutch can also be defined as hitting big shots/big plays when it counts and in tight situations near the end of the game/regulation. Clutch isn't just limited to always making a game winner.I do agree that Manu is pretty clutch but what is the last game-winning basket he hit in an important game? Seriously.
Here are some:
Game 4 07 Finals: Manu Ginobili poured in 13 of his game-high 27 points in the fourth quarter, including six free throws in the final 24 seconds, to keep the charging Cavs at bay. Cleveland had scored the first 11 points of the period, but needed Damon Jones' 3-pointer at the buzzer to produce the final one-point margin.
Game 3 07 Finals: all free throws in the final 10.4 seconds - to hold off the Cavaliers and crush the hopes of their rowdy, towel-waving crowd, who had never before seen their team play a finals game in person.
Game 7 06 Finals: That one three to give us a 3pt lead.
But,the last game winner Manu hit, was the one in the olympics against Serbia, I think.
I'm on record as saying Reggie Miller is one of the most overrated players of his generation. That said, he was damn clutch. To say that Manu was more of a clutch shooter than Miller you'd have to be the most blind homer to ever live. Miller hit game winners in his sleep.
I'm trying to think of the plays which a Manu homer would use to prove Manu's clutchness. You have the pass to Horry against Detroit, which was a nice yet obvious pass. The pass to Duncan against Seattle, which was a bonafide great play. However, you also have the foul and missed layup (and miss pass to Horry wide open) versus Dallas, you have the game losing turnover to Kevin Martin and the Kings and you have another play against Dallas where he got the ball tipped away.
Again, Manu is pretty damn clutch and he'd be one of the first players I'd want on my team going into the fourth quarter of a big game, I just don't understand what he's done to be considered the clutchest player of all-time. Perhaps I'm forgetting some plays . . .
To be fair.... when was the last time spurs won or lost a really close game? Or how many really close games spurs have every year?
I don't know the actual number, but i'm sure it must be low. And when the game is close, manu usually goes for the sure thing, by ataccking the basket and getting fouled.
Back on the topic, i think the fact that Manu is even mentioned as a mvp candite, as imposible as it may be, is something amazing for us... so why don't we enjoy it and relax?
Manu did a good job of hitting his free throws when the Spurs were trying to ice games last year in the playoffs (except versus Phoenix in Game 1). Does that make him the clutchest player of all-time?
manu is not a "game-winner" type clutch. somebody else in this thread mentioned that. its just that in the 4th, he plays harder, anticipates better, i dont know. but he isnt really a clutch shooter, as much as he is a gamer, getting the play the team needs at the right time. of course, no one is perfect and in 06 he messed up an otherwise brilliant performance.
come to think of it, i think horry and duncan are the best "clutch shooter" currently on the team. weird for that list to be bigs instead of smalls.
I agree the point you're trying to make that Manu is not the clutchest player in all of history. I actually didn't really read this whole thing and just read your post, so I didn't really knwo what we're talking about.
The Spurs had plenty of close games in last year's playoffs. Against Denver, the big shots and big plays were authored by Robert Horry. He had that series changing blocked shot and he had the game clinching three on a pass from Parker.
Against Phoenix, in Game 1 Parker hit the clutch basket late. In Game 5, Bowen on a pass from Parker made the biggest shot of the entire Spurs playoff run. Against the Cavs in Game 3, Parker's three-pointer virtually ended the game late.
However, I do agree with the notion that Manu is a different kind of clutch. He's a guy who will dig you out of a 10 point hole on the road in a must win playoff game. He's a guy who will draw a charge on one end and then draw the foul on the other end to put the game away. Manu has more game situational and compe ive type clutchness. He's a guy who can win you a game with his play throughout the game and you can count on him 100% to never back down from pressure.
I just don't get where he's all of a sudden the clutchest sportsman ever.
Then we agree.
And who ever is saying he's the "clutchest sportsman ever" are just homers imo. I would always have Manu on clutch time, but not because of his winning shoots, but his winning effort.
Manu is the clutchest playmaker ever!
Overall, Manu and MJ are the clutchest basketball players ever.
Last edited by meta2007; 11-14-2007 at 05:42 PM.
you do understand that it was just one or two people saying that, right? and one of them owned himself. I don't think you have to worry about this becoming a widespread notion bro
Timvp has a paranoia growing about the CoM. Everybody is a CoM member and they're out to get him.
i had a great time reading this thread...... that's was really......... let's say funny!
To conclude : there are people from argentina who are ed up for real !!!!!
Eh there are homers for every team, and player, national sportsmen, etc....
Statements like "Manu is the CLUTCHIEST player evarrr!!" are self-disputing.
OK GUYS, let's stop the train!!!
I consider myself a Manu lover and still think he got robbed in 05, etc but Manu is not the clutchest player ever in the sense given to clutchness as we understand it.
Clutchness is usually associated to Robert Horry's type of game winning shots and the like.
The clutchness about Manu is a state of mind. He is just a winner under pressure. He would draw a foul while attempting a three pointer while your team is down 5 points and the game is going away. He will make a steal at the beginning of the key, drive into the basket for a lay-up, come back, steal another ball, make a brilliant around the back pass and let a team-mate dunk. People love him for that.
He is a guy who would go histerical after hitting a three and the team ties the game. He would pump up the crowd with his fists up. He would yell out like a possessed individual making weird faces and people would just jump on his wagon.
He is just that kind of player that can take a team to win almost anything no matter what the odds are.
How many times have we seen Manu taking the team by himself and winning impossible games? Do you guys remember the Denver series, the first one 3 years ago? when he single-handly beat the entire Nuggest team and Karl started calling him the biggest flopper ever, in a bas attempt at killing his character? I remember the rest of the team having an incredible off night that day.
Or single-handly raping the Suns in their own turf? They got to the point that Manu couldn't touch a ball without being booed constantly. If my memory is correct I have never ever seen anything like it from a crowd before. All the time, the entire game.
Manu just has an incredible vision of the floor and his senses become very sharp under pressure. When others fail, he comes out victorious. Of course mistakes can happen but we've seen they are mostly flukes.
Manu has helped the Spurs put games away just by being "clutch" at the right moment. I remember almost the entire year last year when he would come back in the 3rd period with his unit and just put the game away for good. Some teams were so afraid of this that asked their players to pay special attention on 3rd quarters.
Somebody mentioned Horry and wining shots. I remember game 5 against Pistons when Horry hit that three, it was an impossible pass from Manu with almost no room and with Sheed all over him. That was it.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. Don't need to add anything else.
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