ESPN overrates Nash once again, ranks him ahead of Payton

[RonMexico]

13.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.6 SPG, 2.4 TO, 45% FG, 37% 3P, 80.5% FT
27.2 MPG

Now, Nash's career averages:

14.1 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 7.6 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.58 TO, 48.5% FG, 42.8% 3P, 89.8% FT
30.5 MPG

So, what's the point of posting Manu's career numbers here? Are you saying Manu is terrible, thus Nash is terrible? His stats are a hair better than Manu's with 3.3 more minutes per game.

Sarcasm, my friend.

RIngo is a moron and I love to point out his non sequitors, which amount to pretty much non arguments, in his hatred of the Suns. He's the SpursTalk equivalent of USC - which is a non-dynasty dynasty.

[sribb43]

LOL at Billups getting votes, writers are so caught up in the now

[JMarkJohns]

Payton's five best statistical seasons
- 22.6 ppg, 8.6 apg on 49% FG, 78% FT, 34% 3FG

Nash's five best statistical seasons
- 17.8 ppg, 10.2 apg on 50% FG, 91% FT, 44% 3FG

Obviously Payton was the better defender of the two, and he could obviously score in bunches in his prime, but even with just a few top-end seasons, Nash's ppg is very good for a PG, his apg is a good bit better and his FT and 3-point percentages are much better. Considering Nash probably has another two years at an elite level, and another handful after at a quality 14-8 level, I think each's prime numbers will be very, very comparable over an 8-to-10 year analysis.

[JMarkJohns]

Didn't Payton come in and start every game right away for the Sonics in his rookie season?

Payton played 2200 minutes his rookie year. Nash didn't play 2200 minutes until his fifth season.

In his fifth season overall in the NBA, Payton averaged 20 ppg, 7 apg on 51% shooting to Nash's 16 ppg, 7 apg on 49% shooting. So, just four ppg more and 2% points better, despite having player a total of 13,237 minutes to just 5,149 minutes for Nash enter that fifth season. That's quite the difference in experience gained. No wonder it took him a few extra years to hit on all cylinders

Wasn't he a highly touted prospect who went high in the draft? Seems to me you're right on point about the advantages Payton had over Nash early in his career (as far as playing time & opportunity to develop quickly). Couple that with the silliness of comparing a 17 year complete career with an 11 year career-in-progress, and I don't see the point of the comparison at all. Lets wait until Nash racks up a few more 18 PPG/11 APG/50% FG/45% 3PG/90% FT seasons to close out his career ... then we can all revisit this debate.

Agreed. When each has played equivalent amount of seasons, then you can compare. But even then it would be best to eiminate each's worst seasons and look at their best to determine statistical impact, then put said stats in context, such as Payton's highest PPG totals came with some pretty average Sonics teams, where as Nash's highest PPG totals came with a team contending for a le. Same with assists.

[oligarchy]

I think it's rediculously silly to compare a now retired player with a 20-year career to an active player just in the midst of his prime with only 10-years worth of a career. To use ulative stats is of course going to favor the 20-year player over the 10-year, so citing assist totals and overall career acheivements is kind of pointless, but to then base an entire thread based upon such is laughable.

I don't know if this is what Ron was going for, but it's certainly something I take issue with of the original post.

If you want to compare each at their best, find a specific number of seasons, like five or eight, and compare only their five or eight best statistical seasons. That eliminates unproductive rookie years, or a slower development as a starter, but still compares each player at their best.

I'd be very curious to see a best five you statistical breakdown of Nash vs. Payton. As the years of Nash's career increase, the number of best seasons compared can increase with it, but Nash was trapped behind players like KJ, Kidd, Cassell for the first handful of seasons in the league, so so include those years isn't proving that one player is better than the other, only that Payton had a more productive career at the start.

See what I'm saying?

Exactly. I don't get the point of the post, or even showing stats from a "6th man". Showing stats only from Nash's PHX playing only would support his argument to compare against any of Payton's best years.

The following was a quick pull from NBA's stats. I grabbed 7 years from Nash (I grabbed 7 because thats the number of years he's been a starter all season)

Then grabbed 7 years from Payton (just grabbed his last FULL 7 years at SEA)

There no you can argue over that instead of someone including crap from someone who plays a different position and role entirely. Now, back to the "Payton vs Nash" debacle.

Nash	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
00-01	DAL	70	70	34.1	0.487	0.406	0.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1	0.1	2.93	2.3	15.6
01-02	DAL	82	82	34.6	0.483	0.455	0.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.1	2.79	2	17.9
02-03	DAL	82	82	33.1	0.465	0.413	0.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1	0.1	2.34	1.6	17.7
03-04	DAL	78	78	33.5	0.47	0.405	0.916	0.8	2.2	3	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.68	1.8	14.5
04-05	PHO	75	75	34.3	0.502	0.431	0.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1	0.1	3.27	1.8	15.5
05-06	PHX	79	79	35.4	0.512	0.439	0.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.49	1.5	18.8
06-07	PHX	76	76	35.3	0.532	0.455	0.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.78	1.5	18.6

		542	542	34.33	0.49	0.43	0.9	0.67	2.66	3.31	9.24	0.87	0.11	3.04	1.79	16.94

Payton	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
95-96	SEA	81	81	39	0.484	0.328	0.748	1.3	2.9	4.2	7.5	2.8	0.2	3.21	2.7	19.3
96-97	SEA	82	82	39.2	0.476	0.313	0.715	1.3	3.3	4.6	7.1	2.4	0.2	2.62	2.5	21.8
97-98	SEA	82	82	38.4	0.453	0.338	0.744	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.3	2.3	0.2	2.79	2.4	19.2
98-99	SEA	50	50	40.2	0.434	0.295	0.721	1.2	3.6	4.9	8.7	2.2	0.2	3.08	2.3	21.7
99-00	SEA	82	82	41.8	0.448	0.34	0.735	1.2	5.2	6.5	8.9	1.9	0.2	2.73	2.2	24.2
00-01	SEA	79	79	41.1	0.456	0.375	0.766	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.1	1.6	0.3	2.65	2.3	23.1
01-02	SEA	82	82	40.3	0.467	0.314	0.797	1	3.9	4.8	9	1.6	0.3	2.55	2.2	22.1

		538	538	40	0.46	0.33	0.75	1.11	3.73	4.89	8.23	2.11	0.23	2.8	2.37	21.63

[JMarkJohns]

Exactly. I don't get the point of the post, or even showing stats from a "6th man". Showing stats only from Nash's PHX playing only would support his argument to compare against any of Payton's best years.

The following was a quick pull from NBA's stats. I grabbed 7 years from Nash (I grabbed 7 because thats the number of years he's been a starter all season)

Then grabbed 7 years from Payton (just grabbed his last FULL 7 years at SEA)

There no you can argue over that instead of someone including crap from someone who plays a different position and role entirely. Now, back to the "Payton vs Nash" debacle.

Nash	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
00-01	DAL	70	70	34.1	0.487	0.406	0.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1	0.1	2.93	2.3	15.6
01-02	DAL	82	82	34.6	0.483	0.455	0.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.1	2.79	2	17.9
02-03	DAL	82	82	33.1	0.465	0.413	0.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1	0.1	2.34	1.6	17.7
03-04	DAL	78	78	33.5	0.47	0.405	0.916	0.8	2.2	3	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.68	1.8	14.5
04-05	PHO	75	75	34.3	0.502	0.431	0.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1	0.1	3.27	1.8	15.5
05-06	PHX	79	79	35.4	0.512	0.439	0.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.49	1.5	18.8
06-07	PHX	76	76	35.3	0.532	0.455	0.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.78	1.5	18.6

		542	542	34.33	0.49	0.43	0.9	0.67	2.66	3.31	9.24	0.87	0.11	3.04	1.79	16.94

Payton	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
95-96	SEA	81	81	39	0.484	0.328	0.748	1.3	2.9	4.2	7.5	2.8	0.2	3.21	2.7	19.3
96-97	SEA	82	82	39.2	0.476	0.313	0.715	1.3	3.3	4.6	7.1	2.4	0.2	2.62	2.5	21.8
97-98	SEA	82	82	38.4	0.453	0.338	0.744	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.3	2.3	0.2	2.79	2.4	19.2
98-99	SEA	50	50	40.2	0.434	0.295	0.721	1.2	3.6	4.9	8.7	2.2	0.2	3.08	2.3	21.7
99-00	SEA	82	82	41.8	0.448	0.34	0.735	1.2	5.2	6.5	8.9	1.9	0.2	2.73	2.2	24.2
00-01	SEA	79	79	41.1	0.456	0.375	0.766	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.1	1.6	0.3	2.65	2.3	23.1
01-02	SEA	82	82	40.3	0.467	0.314	0.797	1	3.9	4.8	9	1.6	0.3	2.55	2.2	22.1

		538	538	40	0.46	0.33	0.75	1.11	3.73	4.89	8.23	2.11	0.23	2.8	2.37	21.63

Great post. Exactly what I was thinking, but even better than I had time to present. The best part about a debate like this is there is no right or wrong answer, only better presented answers than others.

[DannyB]

Nash	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
00-01	DAL	70	70	34.1	0.487	0.406	0.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1	0.1	2.93	2.3	15.6
01-02	DAL	82	82	34.6	0.483	0.455	0.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.1	2.79	2	17.9
02-03	DAL	82	82	33.1	0.465	0.413	0.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1	0.1	2.34	1.6	17.7
03-04	DAL	78	78	33.5	0.47	0.405	0.916	0.8	2.2	3	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.68	1.8	14.5
04-05	PHO	75	75	34.3	0.502	0.431	0.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1	0.1	3.27	1.8	15.5
05-06	PHX	79	79	35.4	0.512	0.439	0.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.49	1.5	18.8
06-07	PHX	76	76	35.3	0.532	0.455	0.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.78	1.5	18.6

		542	542	34.33	0.49	0.43	0.9	0.67	2.66	3.31	9.24	0.87	0.11	3.04	1.79	16.94

Payton	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
95-96	SEA	81	81	39	0.484	0.328	0.748	1.3	2.9	4.2	7.5	2.8	0.2	3.21	2.7	19.3
96-97	SEA	82	82	39.2	0.476	0.313	0.715	1.3	3.3	4.6	7.1	2.4	0.2	2.62	2.5	21.8
97-98	SEA	82	82	38.4	0.453	0.338	0.744	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.3	2.3	0.2	2.79	2.4	19.2
98-99	SEA	50	50	40.2	0.434	0.295	0.721	1.2	3.6	4.9	8.7	2.2	0.2	3.08	2.3	21.7
99-00	SEA	82	82	41.8	0.448	0.34	0.735	1.2	5.2	6.5	8.9	1.9	0.2	2.73	2.2	24.2
00-01	SEA	79	79	41.1	0.456	0.375	0.766	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.1	1.6	0.3	2.65	2.3	23.1
01-02	SEA	82	82	40.3	0.467	0.314	0.797	1	3.9	4.8	9	1.6	0.3	2.55	2.2	22.1

		538	538	40	0.46	0.33	0.75	1.11	3.73	4.89	8.23	2.11	0.23	2.8	2.37	21.63

Good post. You know what two things really jump out at me in that comparison? Minutes per game & points. Payton has the significantly better PPG avg, and I think we all concede that Payton was the better defender; but when you look at how many more minutes Payton played each year, it's really somewhat amazing that Nash's stats compare so favorably in every other respect. I mean, what if Nash was averaging 40+ minutes a game over the 7 year span? I think it's very conceivable that he would have averaged closer to 16-20 PPG for his career so far, if he played comparable minutes. And who knows, maybe a bit more in the steals, etc. Your thoughts?

[monosylab1k]

I mean, what if Nash was averaging 40+ minutes a game over the 7 year span?

there's a reason why he didn't. his body can't handle it.

[Findog]

there's a reason why he didn't. his body can't handle it.

D'Antoni sure wishes that were otherwise. Grant Hill is second on the Suns in mpg this year with 36.

[DannyB]

there's a reason why he didn't. his body can't handle it.

I don't think that's really the whole story, since we're talking about minutes he averaged in games he played, whereas games he missed due to injury wouldn't affect his MPG. But anyway, nobody is arguing that Nash is the better athlete or physical specimen, anyway. In fact, that's one of the things that makes his career so amazing. It was a purely hypothetical idea anyway.

[stretch]

I like men.

Fixed.

[DannyB]

Fixed.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe your mother.

[stretch]

I like to my father.

Fixed.

[LakeShow]

Exactly. I don't get the point of the post, or even showing stats from a "6th man". Showing stats only from Nash's PHX playing only would support his argument to compare against any of Payton's best years.

The following was a quick pull from NBA's stats. I grabbed 7 years from Nash (I grabbed 7 because thats the number of years he's been a starter all season)

Then grabbed 7 years from Payton (just grabbed his last FULL 7 years at SEA)

There no you can argue over that instead of someone including crap from someone who plays a different position and role entirely. Now, back to the "Payton vs Nash" debacle.

Nash	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
00-01	DAL	70	70	34.1	0.487	0.406	0.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1	0.1	2.93	2.3	15.6
01-02	DAL	82	82	34.6	0.483	0.455	0.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.1	2.79	2	17.9
02-03	DAL	82	82	33.1	0.465	0.413	0.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1	0.1	2.34	1.6	17.7
03-04	DAL	78	78	33.5	0.47	0.405	0.916	0.8	2.2	3	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.68	1.8	14.5
04-05	PHO	75	75	34.3	0.502	0.431	0.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1	0.1	3.27	1.8	15.5
05-06	PHX	79	79	35.4	0.512	0.439	0.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.49	1.5	18.8
06-07	PHX	76	76	35.3	0.532	0.455	0.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.78	1.5	18.6

		542	542	34.33	0.49	0.43	0.9	0.67	2.66	3.31	9.24	0.87	0.11	3.04	1.79	16.94

Payton	Team	Games	GS	MPG	FG%	3P%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
95-96	SEA	81	81	39	0.484	0.328	0.748	1.3	2.9	4.2	7.5	2.8	0.2	3.21	2.7	19.3
96-97	SEA	82	82	39.2	0.476	0.313	0.715	1.3	3.3	4.6	7.1	2.4	0.2	2.62	2.5	21.8
97-98	SEA	82	82	38.4	0.453	0.338	0.744	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.3	2.3	0.2	2.79	2.4	19.2
98-99	SEA	50	50	40.2	0.434	0.295	0.721	1.2	3.6	4.9	8.7	2.2	0.2	3.08	2.3	21.7
99-00	SEA	82	82	41.8	0.448	0.34	0.735	1.2	5.2	6.5	8.9	1.9	0.2	2.73	2.2	24.2
00-01	SEA	79	79	41.1	0.456	0.375	0.766	0.9	3.6	4.6	8.1	1.6	0.3	2.65	2.3	23.1
01-02	SEA	82	82	40.3	0.467	0.314	0.797	1	3.9	4.8	9	1.6	0.3	2.55	2.2	22.1

		538	538	40	0.46	0.33	0.75	1.11	3.73	4.89	8.23	2.11	0.23	2.8	2.37	21.63

Excellent Post!

Good post. You know what two things really jump out at me in that comparison? Minutes per game & points. Payton has the significantly better PPG avg, and I think we all concede that Payton was the better defender; but when you look at how many more minutes Payton played each year, it's really somewhat amazing that Nash's stats compare so favorably in every other respect. I mean, what if Nash was averaging 40+ minutes a game over the 7 year span? I think it's very conceivable that he would have averaged closer to 16-20 PPG for his career so far, if he played comparable minutes. And who knows, maybe a bit more in the steals, etc. Your thoughts?

That's something you can't do, assume. It is a testament to Payton that he played so many minutes. I would say that Nash didn't play as many minutes because of his weakness on defense? Doesn't mean I'm right, but it's debatable.

To be considered the best you have to be a factor on both ends of the court in my opinion. Oligarchy provided cold hard facts. That's all that matters!

I agree with the thread starter, ESPN is clueness! No way in should he be ranked ahead of Payton!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I like the controversy this DannyB fellow incites.

[Armando]

Payton rode Wade and his aura which the Mavs kept fouling to win his ring.

[DannyB]

Fixed.

I guess I could get into an infantile contest to get the last word against you ... as you appear to be doing ... or I could just say you and be done with it. Option B it is. Say whatever the you want. Enjoy yourself. Go ahead and rub one out while you're at it. Whatever.

[Findog]

...

Risperdal, Haldol, Prolixin, which one do you use?

[stretch]

I want to rub Amare till he "comes" out.

Fixed.

[monosylab1k]

I guess I could get into an infantile contest to get the last word against you ... as you appear to be doing ... or I could just say you and be done with it. Option B it is. Say whatever the you want. Enjoy yourself. Go ahead and rub one out while you're at it. Whatever.

Would William Faulkner find this prose appealing? Ask yourself that DannyB...

[Findog]

Would William Faulkner find this prose appealing? Ask yourself that DannyB...

With all of the excessive, rat-a-tat-tat profanity, I'm thinking either Hunter. S. Thompson or Palahniuk.

[oligarchy]

Good post. You know what two things really jump out at me in that comparison? Minutes per game & points. Payton has the significantly better PPG avg, and I think we all concede that Payton was the better defender; but when you look at how many more minutes Payton played each year, it's really somewhat amazing that Nash's stats compare so favorably in every other respect. I mean, what if Nash was averaging 40+ minutes a game over the 7 year span? I think it's very conceivable that he would have averaged closer to 16-20 PPG for his career so far, if he played comparable minutes. And who knows, maybe a bit more in the steals, etc. Your thoughts?

Honestly, I couldn't say positively that with a ~6 minutes gain he could increase ~5 PPG. You could say that obviously he would get those points, but playing those extra minutes comes at what cost? It could bring his production down on back-to-back's or later in the season. I'm sure there was a reason he was limited in those minutes (the back problem?) as well as, I'm sure there was a reason Payton had that many minutes (no legitimate back-up? etc.)

I do think some people have underrated Payton. The steals are interesting to note, though. For me, you can see the increase in assists the last three years are the biggest difference. Payton, in those years, doesn't have any significant increases. Rather, he seems like a very consistent player through those years. I don't think Nash will have as long of a career as Payton, but let's see how long Nash plays and then compare against full career records.

[Cry Havoc]

I think to a small degree the better point guard would depend on the team you have. The Suns would likely not be as potent offensively with Payton instead of Nash at the point. Nash stretches the defense with his range and gets into the paint so easily it's hard to believe.

I think there is a tendency in these threads for people of their respective banners to feel as if they're player is being devalued at the expense of the other. I don't see the reason for that. Nash and Payton are two of the best point guards of the past 20 years. Saying that one is better that the other should not be an exclusion of the other player from the list of elite.

That being said, Payton is arguably the more complete player. He has the ability to make big plays on either end. However, I feel Nash has the edge in mental capacity. You almost never see him jack up a bad shot or make a horrible play.

I guess it comes down to team needs and chemistry. Since both players are so great, you can only take their flaws into account. On a team like the Spurs, I would rather have Payton, because the Spurs system is designed to have no defensive holes. It would also give us another stopper to shut down teams with. As good as Nash is, you simply cannot discount the value of a player who can shut down the other point guard.

However, if I was a young GM and I had a team that needed a leader, had less emotional stability, and needed a PG who could dominate a game with passing and offensive control, I'd take Nash. Payton has always stuck me as kind of an ego-driven guy. You really can't go wrong with either player, but in the West right now, Nash doesn't match up well. If the Suns were in the East, they'd be much better off, as they would likely dictate the pace against every other team.

[Findog]

Would William Faulkner find this prose appealing? Ask yourself that DannyB...

Nice avatar. No country for Suns trolls.