Mitc Report Names

[J.T.]

Clemens denies using anything,

[MajorMike]

McGwire would have been a 1st ballot for one reason - baseball needed him more than he needed baseball. During the years of strikes, cocaine suspensions, declining attendance and just down right awful years, the 98 McGwire/Sosa HR battle re-energized baseball like no one could ever imagine. Numbers alone do not get him in, I have no doubt.

The sad part is the same baseball writers that knew Mac was using andro and praised him as a savior are now vilifying him as s simply because it is good press.

[K-State Spur]

nobody gives a about the andro.

it's the testimony before congress that has kept him out.

[MajorMike]

Untrue, and the same copout that the writers are using; but I expect nothing less from you.

[K-State Spur]

yeah, the guy who doesn't even understand his own 'bill of rights' knows the REAL reason that mark mcgwire is out of the hall of fame.

it has nothing to do with basically admitting to congress that he used steroids.

it has everything to do with using a supplement that wasn't even outlawed by most sports organizations at the time he was using it..

that makes a lot of sense.

[MajorMike]

yeah, the guy who doesn't even understand his own 'bill of rights' knows the REAL reason that mark mcgwire is out of the hall of fame.

it has nothing to do with basically admitting to congress that he used steroids.

it has everything to do with using a supplement that wasn't even outlawed by most sports organizations at the time he was using it..

that makes a lot of sense.

It makes complete sense.

How many players you think used ephedrine until Bechler died? It is not illegal in the US, still to this day. How many players you think still use it?

You people don't even realize how silly you look in this arguement abuot what is and isn't and was and wasn't legal.

And what is with this whine you keep on about the Bill or Rights? Have you no other material so you just make it up?

[K-State Spur]

yes, i made up the bill or rights, it's fic ious.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think there was a tremendous cynicism about McGwire before he retired -- at least in terms of his qualifications to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I think I've laid out that argument and stand by my belief that even without a steroids controversy, McGwire is, historically, not a first ballot sort of player.

But it also seems clear to me that as the steriods scandal has unwound itself, long after the summer of 98, McGwire has been an understandable suspect to most people with regard to that issue.

I don't think it matters to most people that he's never admitted to anything (Bonds and Clemens haven't admitted to anything, and there's obviously a wide-spread belief about their cheating) or that nobody's ever directly implicated him in anything (other than Canseco, of course; nobody had implicated Palmeiro other than Canseco, IIRC). I think the issue is that McGwire sure appears to be a model suspect for someone using steroids or HGH (along with Andro). When McGwire gave his wishy-washy, Fifth Amendment-clouded "testimony" before Congress, I think those who wondered about his use of steroids or HGH became convinced of Canseco's allegation.

This isn't a court of law; such inferences from vague testimony and Fifth Amendment assertions is perfectly understandable in the court of public opinion. Hall of Fame voting, when you get right down to it, is largely a matter of opinion (at least the opinions of baseball writers) and those are the very people who may have been most offended by McGwire's evasiveness in Washington.

Personally, I don't see McGwire's non-election in 2007 as some sort of unprecedented omission or a hideous injustice. I would see it that way if the Congressional hearing had never happened, but I'm particularly inclined to see it that way after that hearing. Whether it was permissible or not at the time, it seems clear to me that using steroids or HGH (at any time) is cheating. I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game.

[violentkitten]

the argument for his induction would be that he is #8 on the all-time home run list and that he once held the single season home run record.

but, yeah, he was roided up.

[K-State Spur]

the argument for his induction would be that he is #8 on the all-time home run list and that he once held the single season home run record.

but, yeah, he was roided up.

I get downtown's argument, he's saying that often historically, HRs alone - even at the peak numbers - haven't always proven to make a player a first ballot hall of famer.

Let us not forget that within their own era, Ty Cobb was considered a superior player to Babe Ruth.

[FromWayDowntown]

I get downtown's argument, he's saying that often historically, HRs alone - even at the peak numbers - haven't always proven to make a player a first ballot hall of famer.

I'm saying that among the prolific home run hitters, McGwire is easily the most one-dimensional player and that his closest comparison within that group, Harmon Killebrew (a fairly one-dimensional player whose HR totals are inflated by his longevity) wasn't a first ballot guy.

I'm not saying that McGwire didn't (or doesn't) warrant induction. I'm saying that McGwire wouldn't be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer if I had a say in that matter.

Ultimately, the point of adding my comments was to echo the idea that it's not some ridiculous thing that McGwire didn't get into the Hall on the first ballot. Whether that's because he's suspected of ingesting performance enhancing substances or because his numbers don't qualify him for induction on the first ballot, the result, it seems to me, is perfectly understandable.

[MajorMike]

I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game.

So Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton and Ty Cobb don't belong.

Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth admitted that they played often under the influence of alcohol.

Therefore by default, Roger Clemens should receive no consideration into the HOF, as well.

[K-State Spur]

So Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton and Ty Cobb don't belong.

Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth admitted that they played often under the influence of alcohol.

Therefore by default, Roger Clemens should receive no consideration into the HOF, as well.

Clemens likely won't be a first ballot HOF now.

[FromWayDowntown]

So Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton and Ty Cobb don't belong.

Perry and Sutton go some ways toward proving the point -- Perry, with his 300+ wins, got in on the third try; Sutton, with his 300+ wins, got in on the 5th try.

Again, my point is that these guys shouldn't be in the Hall -- it's that they deservedly didn't get into the Hall on the first ballot. To me there is no greater honor for a major leaguer than to be a first ballot hall of famer. Fewer than 40 men have achieved that honor. It's an elite group.

I'm not sure exactly what Ty Cobb's game-altering cheating was, but given that Cobb is easily considered one of the finest players ever and is considered to be such because he wasn't a one-dimensional player, I'm not sure that anything other than the most blatant cheating imaginable (and I'm not even sure what that would have been in the early 20th century -- paying opponents to rig plays in your favor?) would have kept Cobb from inclusion in the first Hall of Fame class.

Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth admitted that they played often under the influence of alcohol.

Show me a suggestion that alcohol has some beneficial effect on one's ability to do the things required of a baseball player and I'll see your point.

Therefore by default, Roger Clemens should receive no consideration into the HOF, as well.

Errr, way to miss my argument. Clemens undoubtedly belongs in the Hall; it wouldn't surprise me, though, if he now misses enshrinement on the first ballot because of the allegations levied against him. There's no doubt in my mind, however, that Clemens will deservedly be enshrined at some point.

Clemens is much closer to having Cobb's argument than McGwire is.

[MajorMike]

I'm not sure exactly what Ty Cobb's game-altering cheating was,

Cobb was well known as being one of the dirtiest players and furthermore a most worthless human being. Ok, so maybe saying cheating is stretching it a bit; however sitting in the dugout having the opposing team's 2nd baseman watching you sharpen your metal es certainly is going to make him think twice about standing in on a steal attempt by you. Additionally, Cobb was a notrious gambler, which would have gotten him banned alone these days, and there are many allegations that he bet on baseball.

Show me a suggestion that alcohol has some beneficial effect on one's ability to do the things required of a baseball player and I'll see your point.

From 1920 to 1933, alcohol was an illegal substance in the US. Babe Ruth's heydays were from 1919-1932. Therefore, by admitting he more often than not played drunk, he admitted to taking an illegal substance. Therefore, during those years, he cheated.

Err... I completely got your arguement. You plainly said:
"I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game."

However, now you just said:
"Clemens undoubtedly belongs in the Hall."

So which is it... if he is a cheater then according to you he should not be rewarded with the HOF. You didn't say a thing about him missing a ballot; you said no HOF, period.

[K-State Spur]

From 1920 to 1933, alcohol was an illegal substance in the US. Babe Ruth's heydays were from 1919-1932. Therefore, by admitting he more often than not played drunk, he admitted to taking an illegal substance. Therefore, during those years, he cheated.

Not exactly apples and apples. Performancing enhancing drugs are what is going to hurt players today from being in the hall of fame. Alcohol during Prohibition would be better compared to recreational drugs today. We have guys like Ferguson Jenkins whose drug use was not condoned, but since the drugs can't be given credit for his stats, he still makes the hall.

[FromWayDowntown]

"I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game."

However, now you just said:
"Clemens undoubtedly belongs in the Hall."

So which is it... if he is a cheater then according to you he should not be rewarded with the HOF. You didn't say a thing about him missing a ballot; you said no HOF, period.

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post? Show me where I said no Hall of Fame, period.

What I said is that a cheater shouldn't get the highest honor in the game -- I also said that election on the first ballot is that highest honor.

Election to the Hall of Fame is certainly a high honor and, as my posts throughout this thread demonstrate, I have no doubt that Mark McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame. But I don't think he deserves the highest honor -- election on the first ballot.

In fact, earlier in this thread I wrote:

I think there's a perfectly valid argument supporting the notion that while McGwire is a likely Hall of Famer, entry on the first ballot was never realistic.

and

I'm not saying that McGwire didn't (or doesn't) warrant induction. I'm saying that McGwire wouldn't be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer if I had a say in that matter.

If you take all of that to me an assertion on my part that McGwire should never be enshrined, you have, in fact, completely missed my argument.

Strawmen aren't very becoming. . . .

[MajorMike]

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post? Show me where I said no Hall of Fame, period.

What I said is that a cheater shouldn't get the highest honor in the game -- I also said that election on the first ballot is that highest honor.

Election to the Hall of Fame is certainly a high honor and, as my posts throughout this thread demonstrate, I have no doubt that Mark McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame. But I don't think he deserves the highest honor -- election on the first ballot.

In fact, earlier in this thread I wrote:



and



If you take all of that to me an assertion on my part that McGwire should never be enshrined, you have, in fact, completely missed my argument.

Strawmen aren't very becoming. . . .

I think there was a tremendous cynicism about McGwire before he retired -- at least in terms of his qualifications to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I think I've laid out that argument and stand by my belief that even without a steroids controversy, McGwire is, historically, not a first ballot sort of player.

But it also seems clear to me that as the steriods scandal has unwound itself, long after the summer of 98, McGwire has been an understandable suspect to most people with regard to that issue.

I don't think it matters to most people that he's never admitted to anything (Bonds and Clemens haven't admitted to anything, and there's obviously a wide-spread belief about their cheating) or that nobody's ever directly implicated him in anything (other than Canseco, of course; nobody had implicated Palmeiro other than Canseco, IIRC). I think the issue is that McGwire sure appears to be a model suspect for someone using steroids or HGH (along with Andro). When McGwire gave his wishy-washy, Fifth Amendment-clouded "testimony" before Congress, I think those who wondered about his use of steroids or HGH became convinced of Canseco's allegation.

This isn't a court of law; such inferences from vague testimony and Fifth Amendment assertions is perfectly understandable in the court of public opinion. Hall of Fame voting, when you get right down to it, is largely a matter of opinion (at least the opinions of baseball writers) and those are the very people who may have been most offended by McGwire's evasiveness in Washington.

Personally, I don't see McGwire's non-election in 2007 as some sort of unprecedented omission or a hideous injustice. I would see it that way if the Congressional hearing had never happened, but I'm particularly inclined to see it that way after that hearing. Whether it was permissible or not at the time, it seems clear to me that using steroids or HGH (at any time) is cheating. I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game.

Yes, I did read your entire post.

No where, that means, not in it, inside it, during it or with in, did you once say, "I also said that election on the first ballot is that highest honor."

That means you didn't say it. So therefore, you can understand why I was confused after you waffled on what you did and didn't say.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes, I did read your entire post.

No where, that means, not in it, inside it, during it or with in, did you once say, "I also said that election on the first ballot is that highest honor."

That means you didn't say it. So therefore, you can understand why I was confused after you waffled on what you did and didn't say.

Hmmm, here's what I wrote:

To me there is no greater honor for a major leaguer than to be a first ballot hall of famer. Fewer than 40 men have achieved that honor. It's an elite group.

[BeerIsGood!]

Does anyone believe Clemens in all of this? I definitely don't want to, but what bugs me is that there is only one person who has pointed the finger at Clemens, and that person has his ass in the fire and could easily give a high profile name if he realizes that there is absolutely no way to prove or disprove what he says. It could be very possible that he had a falling out with Clemens at some point and this is a bit of retribution or vengence, I would be interested in knowing what the status of their relationship has been prior to his information being given to Mitc . Pet te and others admitting using at at least one point in time gives him credibility, but again he could have added Clemens if he has some beef with him over something in the past. Not much substantial evidence involved in this whole thing that is smashing people's reputations.

[mikejones99]

Clemens is huge compared to his early days, just like barry but barry is black so more people went after him.

[Extra Stout]

From 1920 to 1933, alcohol was an illegal substance in the US. Babe Ruth's heydays were from 1919-1932. Therefore, by admitting he more often than not played drunk, he admitted to taking an illegal substance. Therefore, during those years, he cheated.

Oh, this is rich. Now booze is a performance-enhancing drug?

For your next performance, are you going to claim that stuffing your face with hot dogs enhances performance?

You are starting to push T Park for the "Most Risible Cardinals Homer on SpursTalk" crown.

[MajorMike]

Hmmm, here's what I wrote:

Ok... now you are waffling again.

10:39 you wrote:
"I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game."

2:54 you edited:
"I'm saying that McGwire wouldn't be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer if I had a say in that matter."

3:09 I said:
"Therefore by default, Roger Clemens should receive no consideration into the HOF, as well."

3:33 you said, for the 1st time:
"To me there is no greater honor for a major leaguer than to be a first ballot hall of famer."

Then the rest of the time you proceeded to tell me what you didn't say earlier. Maybe you MEANT to say it, but I doubt it.

Oh, this is rich. Now booze is a performance-enhancing drug?

Once again, stout COMPLETELY missing the point. We need to get you one of those headbands with a springy/glittery airplane on it.

My comments were in jest to another line of comments by someone else, but figuring that out would require you to have more linear thought; something I haven't seen from you yet.

[FromWayDowntown]

Ok... now you are waffling again.

10:39 you wrote:
"I believe that Mark McGwire cheated and I don't think a cheater should be rewarded with the very highest honor in the game."

2:54 you edited:
"I'm saying that McGwire wouldn't be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer if I had a say in that matter."

3:09 I said:
"Therefore by default, Roger Clemens should receive no consideration into the HOF, as well."

3:33 you said, for the 1st time:
"To me there is no greater honor for a major leaguer than to be a first ballot hall of famer."

Then the rest of the time you proceeded to tell me what you didn't say earlier. Maybe you MEANT to say it, but I doubt it.

From my very first post on this subject, my contention was that McGwire didn't deserve to be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer. Throughout, I've admitted that McGwire deserves to be a Hall-of-Famer. I'm quite confident that anyone who bothered to actually read all of my posts in this thread would see that I've been completely consistent in those two thoughts. If, in your Quixotic effort to build up McGwire by believing that others are beating him down, you choose to put words into my mouth to allow yourself to think that you've somehow gotten over on me, I can't help that. I know what I said and I'm quite sure that you either haven't read what I wrote or have willingly chosen to misconstrue my words.

By the way, my 2:54 edit -- cited above -- was to add this paragraph, not what you have chosen to believe that I added:

Ultimately, the point of adding my comments was to echo the idea that it's not some ridiculous thing that McGwire didn't get into the Hall on the first ballot. Whether that's because he's suspected of ingesting performance enhancing substances or because his numbers don't qualify him for induction on the first ballot, the result, it seems to me, is perfectly understandable.

Merry Christmas.

[Extra Stout]

Once again, stout COMPLETELY missing the point. We need to get you one of those headbands with a springy/glittery airplane on it.

My comments were in jest to another line of comments by someone else, but figuring that out would require you to have more linear thought; something I haven't seen from you yet.

No, I understood EXACTLY what you said. You're so desperate to stave off cognitive dissonance against your McGwire worship, as you kneel before the altar to him of baseball cards, figurines, and a shred of cloth from a game-worn jersey you set up in your parents' basement, that you started flinging up spaghetti noodles against the wall to see what would stick.

It's also funny that you're so wound up, typing as you clutch your Fredbird doll tight against your chest with your free arm, that you failed for two pages to understand FWDs point about being elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot as opposed to being elected ever at all. Once you realized your mistake, you devolved into this ridiculous argument about whether he clarified himself soon enough for your liking, in a vain attempt, which nobody is buying, to make it seem as though you didn't just make a complete ass of yourself.

Please just stop. You are shaming the memory of all the great Oklahoma State graduates and RPI experts.