Benazifr Bhutto killed in suicide attack!

[whottt]

Bhutto fingered the guy in her death letter...

You think it's propaganda?


If Musharraf wasn't behind it...he let it happen for his own gain. 100% certainty. Either way...it's hard to believe he stands for improving things in Pakistan, which is what he's been selling.

The thing is...if you sanction Pakistan, if you cut economic ties with them...it will only get worse, because the one resource they have to sell, is nuclear technology.

[whottt]

"I don't care if anyone believes that or calls me a liar...because they're wrong." I've said to many people myself. You can call me anti-American or a terrorist sympathizer or weak on national defense but I too know they are wrong. I don't think America is the bad guy at all. Far from it. You guys just like to think us guys think that way and you are wrong.

IF you say America is the cause of Radical Islam, that our policies are the cause of Radical Islam you are sympathizing with them...because that is what they say...that is the definition of sympathizing.


If you feel we should mind our own business, stay out of the affairs of others in this particular conflict, just sit back and be our wealthyselves...you are not standing for action, you are standing for inaction.

I don't see how it can be argued otherwise Joe.

You can say I'm attacking you personally...but I'm not..and people that do support this war get attacked nonstop...


Take a look at this forum...there about 3 guys left in here that aren't anti-war...I assure you, there are more than that on this forum, but there is 24/7 antiwar propaganda in this forum and it doesn't matter what those guys do or say, they still get hit with the same crap...WMD, War for Oil etc. En masse by the so called liberal posters on this forum.

Both sides attack the other...but one does it with much greater frequency.


You don't like being accused of terrorist sympathizing? I don't like being called a stupid greedy war profiteer...

[Nbadan]

For Benazir Bhutto, the decision to return to Pakistan was sealed during a telephone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just a week before Bhutto flew home in October. The call culminated more than a year of secret diplomacy -- and came only when it became clear that the heir to Pakistan's most powerful political dynasty was the only one who could bail out Washington's key ally in the battle against terrorism.

It was a stunning turnaround for Bhutto, a former prime minister who was forced from power in 1996 amid corruption charges. She was suddenly visiting with top State Department officials, dining with U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and conferring with members of the National Security Council. As President Pervez Musharraf's political future began to unravel this year, Bhutto became the only politician who might help keep him in power.

"The U.S. came to understand that Bhutto was not a threat to stability, but was instead the only possible way that we could guarantee stability and keep the presidency of Musharraf intact," said Mark Siegel, who lobbied for Bhutto in Washington and witnessed much of the behind-the-scenes diplomacy.

But the diplomacy that ended abruptly with Bhutto's assassination yesterday was always an enormous gamble, according to current and former U.S. policymakers, intelligence officials and outside analysts. By entering into the legendary "Great Game" of South Asia, the United States also made its goals and allies more vulnerable -- in a country in which more than 70 percent of the population already looked unfavorably upon Washington.

Washington Post

[Extra Stout]

Let's see here... Islamic terrorists gain control of Pakistan and its nuclear arsenal. Pakistani middle class of 30 million flees, creating humanitarian crisis. Via infiltration into the British Pakistani community, Islamists smuggle a nuke into London, detonate it and kill 5 million people. Every nation in NATO declares war on Pakistan. Nuclear retaliation kills 120 million Pakistanis. Fallout kills tens of thousands of Indians. Every Muslim nation on Earth declares war on NATO. Westerners caught in Muslim countries are universally slaughtered by mobs. Muslims in Europe and the U.S. start a general uprising in the cities.

That's all I've got so far.

[whottt]

Let's see here... Islamic terrorists gain control of Pakistan and its nuclear arsenal. Pakistani middle class of 30 million flees, creating humanitarian crisis. Via infiltration into the British Pakistani community, Islamists smuggle a nuke into London, detonate it and kill 5 million people. Every nation in NATO declares war on Pakistan. Nuclear retaliation kills 120 million Pakistanis. Fallout kills tens of thousands of Indians. Every Muslim nation on Earth declares war on NATO. Westerners caught in Muslim countries are universally slaughtered by mobs. Muslims in Europe and the U.S. start a general uprising in the cities.

That's all I've got so far.

I don't see anything that complex...

More like, Musharraf says...

Scenario A: Well, I want this and this and this...and I want you to tell India to STFU about Kashmire...and well if you don't? I may just have to start being alittle careless with my nuclear tech.

Actually that's probably what he has been doing anyway...and we were just hoping allying with us would drive a wedge between he and Radical Islam to where he couldn't go back.


Scenario B: A terrorist group successfully smuggles several nuclear devices into several major cities within the United State of America and says they will detonate one if certain demands are not met, perhaps they detonate one just to show they aren't full of it.....at which point we will either have a guy that will cave or we have a guy that won't...

If we have a guy that caves we will live with that threat for the foreseeable future...if we have a nice MYOB guy that won't cave a cities going ot get nuked, and then he'll probably cave.



Now if Rudy's in office...he says the day he gets into office...

IF a nuke goes off in a US city I'm going ot nuke Mecca, I'm going to Nuke Tehran and I going to Nuke Islamabad...

And I am going to do it wearing my best st of heels and my favorite nightie...and he's smiling as he says it.




I see that as a pretty effective deterrent personally...the crossdressing thing only makes him more scary...

[BradLohaus]

I think we should make sure that it is as difficult as possible for terrorists to get into the country before we start talking about nuking Mecca, which would pretty much guarantee permanent war with the Muslim world.

Rudy looks to be pretty soft on border defense to me. But given that he hired Norman Podhoretz as his senior foreign policy advisor, I don't doubt that he would nuke Mecca in a heartbeat. But border defense...what does that have to do with defending our country? Just nuke 'em.

Oh and you're all conspiracy theorists; a lone wacko killed Bhutto. Lone wackos have been planning and carrying out political assassinations throughout history.

Seriously though, it's amazing that she wrote a letter about this.

[JoeChalupa]

IF you say America is the cause of Radical Islam, that our policies are the cause of Radical Islam you are sympathizing with them...because that is what they say...that is the definition of sympathizing.


If you feel we should mind our own business, stay out of the affairs of others in this particular conflict, just sit back and be our wealthyselves...you are not standing for action, you are standing for inaction.

I don't see how it can be argued otherwise Joe.

You can say I'm attacking you personally...but I'm not..and people that do support this war get attacked nonstop...


Take a look at this forum...there about 3 guys left in here that aren't anti-war...I assure you, there are more than that on this forum, but there is 24/7 antiwar propaganda in this forum and it doesn't matter what those guys do or say, they still get hit with the same crap...WMD, War for Oil etc. En masse by the so called liberal posters on this forum.

Both sides attack the other...but one does it with much greater frequency.


You don't like being accused of terrorist sympathizing? I don't like being called a stupid greedy war profiteer...

IF you say America is the cause of Radical Islam, that our policies are the cause of Radical Islam you are sympathizing with them...because that is what they say...that is the definition of sympathizing.

Not once have I said that so you are dead wrong on that issue.

If you feel we should mind our own business, stay out of the affairs of others in this particular conflict, just sit back and be our wealthyselves...you are not standing for action, you are standing for inaction.

Again, not once have I ever said that.
I don't take things in here personally because I know that my views differ from others but I don't resort, at least I try not to, to lumping people together or questioning one's patriotism simply because they do have a different opinion. Action to me doesn't always mean war and that is probably the big difference in the way we view things.

Take a look at this forum...there about 3 guys left in here that aren't anti-war...I assure you, there are more than that on this forum, but there is 24/7 antiwar propaganda in this forum and it doesn't matter what those guys do or say, they still get hit with the same crap...WMD, War for Oil etc. En masse by the so called liberal posters on this forum.

Both sides attack the other...but one does it with much greater frequency.


You don't like being accused of terrorist sympathizing? I don't like being called a stupid greedy war profiteer...

In all my years in the military not ONCE did I speak to an officer who was pro-war and I worked with many in my field. Is war sometimes necessary? Of course it is but the wounds and effects are not left on the battlefield. Far from it.
Yeah, both sides attack the other but not everyone refers to name calling, which in my opinion lessenss the effect of one's argument. You can call my a terrorist sympathizer all you want but I KNOW you are wrong. Dead wrong. If you or anyone else thinks that I would not die for my country and love it any less than you do you are dead wrong. I can take quite a bit but when one questions my religion or the love of my country that does hit a nerve.
As I am sure it does you too.

I'm just going to be sure to have some peace pipe to smoke so we can have a great discussion at the next GTG.

[whottt]

Seriously though, it's amazing that she wrote a letter about this.

Did you actually read the letter? She was pretty clear on the safety measures Musharraf denied her...

If he wasn't a part of it, he let it happen...knowing full well what would happen. I mean this dude's almost been assassinated several times...it's not like he's ignorant of the measures needed to stay alive...and he denied them to her.

He's dirty...no matter how you look at it.


Of course with the at udes radical muslims have towards women one of them was going to try to kill her...that's a no brainer. But the key issue is that he knew it would happen...and refused her the safety measures needed to survive. That's the same thing as being behind the assassination in my book.

[whottt]

Not once have I said that so you are dead wrong on that issue.



Again, not once have I ever said that.
I don't take things in here personally because I know that my views differ from others but I don't resort, at least I try not to, to lumping people together or questioning one's patriotism simply because they do have a different opinion. Action to me doesn't always mean war and that is probably the big difference in the way we view things.



In all my years in the military not ONCE did I speak to an officer who was pro-war and I worked with many in my field. Is war sometimes necessary? Of course it is but the wounds and effects are not left on the battlefield. Far from it.
Yeah, both sides attack the other but not everyone refers to name calling, which in my opinion lessenss the effect of one's argument. You can call my a terrorist sympathizer all you want but I KNOW you are wrong. Dead wrong. If you or anyone else thinks that I would not die for my country and love it any less than you do you are dead wrong. I can take quite a bit but when one questions my religion or the love of my country that does hit a nerve.
As I am sure it does you too.

I'm just going to be sure to have some peace pipe to smoke so we can have a great discussion at the next GTG.

And you know what Joe...I don't think there's been a single time I just jumped into a thread and started after you personally(well ok there might have been a couple of times(...but I am usually just spouting off my views and you jump in and say I am attacking you.

[BradLohaus]

Did you actually read the letter? She was pretty clear on the safety measures Musharraf denied her...

If he wasn't a part of it, he let it happen...knowing full well what would happen. I mean this dude's almost been assassinated several times...it's not like he's ignorant of the measures needed to stay alive...and he denied them to her.

He's dirty...no matter how you look at it.

Oh I agree. He did it or he let it happen. I just think it's funny that some people in America think that things like that can't happen here.

[whottt]

I think we should make sure that it is as difficult as possible for terrorists to get into the country before we start talking about nuking Mecca, which would pretty much guarantee permanent war with the Muslim world.

That battle was lost before the war was even begun.

Rudy looks to be pretty soft on border defense to me. But given that he hired Norman Podhoretz as his senior foreign policy advisor, I don't doubt that he would nuke Mecca in a heartbeat. But border defense...what does that have to do with defending our country? Just nuke 'em.

Um...I am with you on the border defense...but if you think that's a better deterrent than the threat of nuclear annhilation you must have missed the entire second half of the 20th century.


The only way nuclear materials will wind up within our borders, the only way they can be contaiend and transported to be used against us is with the aid of foreign governments...that's why you threaten them for nuclear terrorism that occurs in the US.

There's no such thing as secure border...offer some underpaid border patrol millions of dollar and all the walls in the world are use less.


Threaten a power and control seeking narcissist with his life OTOH...just about the most effective threat you can make.

[Holt's Cat]

The little people have no clue what's going on at the top. It should be clear that things are not as they seem and, yes, $ buys influence and exceptions.

[whottt]

The little people have no clue what's going on at the top. It should be clear that things are not as they seem and, yes, $ buys influence and exceptions.

Funny...that's what they told me when I said Parker would be pissed off about the Spurs trying to sign Kidd...how do I know?


Human Nature is human nature...study that and there aren't many secrets.

[JoePublic]

And you know what Joe...I don't think there's been a single time I just jumped into a thread and started after you personally(well ok there might have been a couple of times(...but I am usually just spouting off my views and you jump in and say I am attacking you.

[Holt's Cat]

Um...I am with you on the border defense...but if you think that's a better deterrent than the threat of nuclear annhilation you must have missed the entire second half of the 20th century.

The US invaded two countries after an attack perpetrated by items picked up at a hardware store. Considering we are sitting on the world's largest stockpile of nuclear arms I would think our enemies are aware of the potential consequences.

We find ourselves sucked into ME politics due to our reliance on fossil fuels and support of various oppressive regimes in the region, not to mention our relationship with the state of Israel.

Rattling the nuclear saber at this point would be counterproductive considering the US and the EU are trying to pressure Iran into not pursuing nuclear weapons production.

The US is already in a tough spot. The last thing we need is a president threatening to destroy Mecca.

[JoeChalupa]

And you know what Joe...I don't think there's been a single time I just jumped into a thread and started after you personally(well ok there might have been a couple of times(...but I am usually just spouting off my views and you jump in and say I am attacking you.

No, no, no. I'm not accusing you of attacking me personally. I know that is not the case at all. That was not the intent of my posts. I throw my opinions in here and my intent is not to attack anyone personally...well, maybe TPark...but I just like to voice my views and opinions even if they are in the minority or totally whack to some.
But I think the fact that I don't feel speaking out against the war is being sympathetic to terrorist at all strikes a nerve. I know you don't mean it personally but when things like that are said it does hit me on a personal level. I like the fact that we can disagree yet have a great time and laugh as well. In the end, conservative or liberal, republican or democrat, we are all in this together.

[Holt's Cat]

Funny...that's what they told me when I said Parker would be pissed off about the Spurs trying to sign Kidd...how do I know?

That was such a novel observation.

Human Nature is human nature...study that and there aren't many secrets.

Sure, humankind tends to pursue its own interests first and foremost.

Now on to your latest gems.

[whottt]

W invaded two countries after an attack perpetrated by items picked up at a hardware store. Considering we are sitting on the world's largest stockpile of nuclear arms I would think our enemies are aware of the potential consequences

Fixed


And pretty much assured we won't have a nuclear attack on this soil while we are in office when he did so...

These guys realize the differences between our leaders...the next leader will tested...you can bet on that....

I look at Ron Paul....who gets sncikered by the other 15 candidates during debates...

And I look at Guilianni...who gives me the ing creeps...


And I know exactly which one I would be more willing to put to the test...and that's the guy saying they don't want us there.


Now the truth is...the guys like Paul are willing to do the same thing...they just don't seem like they will...which to me increases the likleyhood that they will be the one that has to do it.

I rather that not happen.



As for your EU statements...the EU is our enemy. They are our economic rival and they want us, the last remaining superpower and the only nation greater than them, whittled down, on top of that they are ing clueless...wake the up...even Paul realizes that.

[Holt's Cat]

Fixed


And pretty much assured we won't have a nuclear attack on this soil while we are in office when he did so...

And increased the likelihood that we'll face one after he heads back to the ranch for good.

These guys realize the differences between our leaders...the next leader will tested...you can bet on that....

All leaders are tested. How many more will overreact?

I look at Ron Paul....who gets sncikered by the other 15 candidates during debates...

Because he says the things they are afraid to say. Be it on domestic or foreign policy. The rest have to pretend that 'they hate us because we're free' or that we need to continue to provide for Western Germany's defense here in 2007, soon to be 2008.

And I look at Guilianni...who gives me the ing creeps...


And I know exactly which one I would be more willing to put to the test...and that's the guy saying they don't want us there.




Now the truth is...the guys like Paul are willing to do the same thing...they just don't seem like they will...which to me increases the likleyhood that they will be the one that has to do it.

I rather that not happen.

Even Giuliani isn't foolish enough to say he's ready to destroy Mecca out of the blue.

As for your EU statements...the EU is our enemy. They are our economic rival and they want us, the last remaining superpower and the only nation greater than them, whittled down, on top of that they are ing clueless...wake the up...even Paul realizes that.

Like it or not we can use their support in dealing with Iran.

[whottt]

That was such a novel observation.

Considering how many otherwise knowledgable posters didn't see it coming, or as a problem...I agree.


Good thing we still got a PG...2 les in 4 years later.

Sure, humankind tends to pursue its own interests first and foremost.

Oversimplification...not to mention overly cynical.

IF you had that much insight into it you wouldn't have the views you have...you are the observee...not the observer.

[Holt's Cat]

I guess I need to hit the return key and the . key more...


wow this is really something.......



AWESOME now I am the observer....

[whottt]

And increased the likelihood that we'll face one after he heads back to the ranch for good.

Depending on who follows him up..and I disagree with increased...a lot more dead suicide bombers int he world now...not to mention more disillusioned.

All leaders are tested. How many more will overreact?

there's no such thing as overracting to a nuclear weapon detonated in a US city IMO.

The fact that you think there is...be sure to talk to me after it happens. And again in 6 months after it happened....

Because he says the things they are afraid to say. Be it on domestic or foreign policy.

More like they realize the chances of someone that naive and idealistic becoming President are virturally nil...American people will never trust someone like that.

The rest have to pretend that 'they hate us because we're free' or that we need to continue to provide for Western Germany's defense here in 2007, soon to be 2008.

I'm with you on the Western Germany thing...but what scares me is you think that's a really important issue.

Even Giuliani isn't foolish enough to say he's ready to destroy Mecca out of the blue.

Out of the blue...how do you get out of the blue from this conversation?

One of us derailed....

Like it or not we can use their support in dealing with Iran.

Like it or not their support is entirely for their own benefit and pretty much the last thing they want to do, and counting on their help is akin to counting on some help from a couple of junkies in putting their dealer in jail...

France and Germany have like 0 oil...it matters. Just ask Saddam...

[whottt]

I guess I need to hit the return key and the . key more...


wow this is really something.......



AWESOME now I am the observer....

Start by observing here...

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html

Not the best resource...but better than a message board.

[E20]

This debate/argument has sort of gone from the original point. The lady died and everybody knew it was coming for her. She was constantly being targeted and when she came back to Pakistan this year she was targeted again, you can't cheat death that many times. This ain't no shock. Musharraf will probably set order back in Pakistan in a couple of weeks. Everything will be back to normal. That is all.

[whottt]

This debate/argument has sort of gone from the original point. The lady died and everybody knew it was coming for her. She was constantly being targeted and when she came back to Pakistan this year she was targeted again, you can't cheat death that many times.

Yes you can...Musharraf is much more unpopular and he's cheated it more times.

This ain't no shock. Musharraf will probably set order back in Pakistan in a couple of weeks. Everything will be back to normal. That is all.

Normal there isn't good...for us.