I agree, I have opinions too, but I might watch 7 or 8 Rockets games all year long...so I'll defer to DaDakota about Bobby Jackson's ability to fit in and contribute to Houston's rotation because that's a little too inside baseball for me when it comes to other teams.
You have got to be kidding me....lol
I mean, how could anyone know anything about your team but you.......COME ON.....
I mean, I see you guys talking about Houston. Don't get so testy......just because I have a different opinion than you.
And I would ask FinDog to bet, but we all know how that would end up...right finny?
SHEESH !
DD
Last edited by DaDakota; 03-17-2008 at 08:15 AM.
What is even more arrogant from the Spurs fans is that in a year where there are 9 teams who have a possible chance of winning the West they judge the Mavs trade by how it matches up with them. Giveb how much the Spurs are sucking lately, it's even more silly that the Mavs should worry exclusively about the Spurs.
And again, from what I saw in the previous game, Kidd or no Kidd a Mavs-Spurs game will always be close. Every matchup problem the Spurs have with us starts with Dirk, and he is playing as good as ever right now.
It would be just as silly of me to say that the K.Thomas trade is worthless cause he isn't gonna cover Dirk (which is true by the way) when I clearely can see that he was brought here to handle the other big froncurts of the west: Bynum/Gasol, Amare/Shaq, Chandler/West/, Boozer/Okur, Camby/Martin (who seems fully healthy by the way). It's a huge burden to ask Duncan to do this all the time, and Oberto isn't the best of defenders anyway.
There's a difference between having an opinion and being a who thinks he knows more about a team than the actual fans of the team.
I have opinions on the Rockets, I state those opinions, but I don't go off acting as if I know more about possible playoff rotations and how many minutes Carl Landry should get than any Rockets fan.
You can have your opinion, but your air of superiority due to your team's 21 game regular season winning streak is re ed.
When did I say I know more than him?
I believe the Kidd trade was a mistake and listed my reasons....you are just being a tad bit oversensitive.
And, I also was commenting on their fans saying it was done for this year, so I still have not gotten an answer from them that if it FAILS this year...as I think it will....then does that mean they believe the trade was a mistake.
I don't have any air of superiority, wtf are you talking about.....I am enjoying the streak fo-sure....but what does that have to do with me thinking the Kidd trade was a bad one?
Kids...SHEESH !!
DD
It is a failure only if we would win with Harris. It seemed like we weren't going to, obviously we will never know for sure, and it seems like we are playing better. On those basis, it's hard to say it's even close to a failure. It might turn to be a success IF we actually make a huge run this year, which I am really starting to believe we will.
Endrity,
I just think that Cuban over reacted to one playoff loss to a hot team. The Mavs were in the finals 2 years ago, and won 67 games last year, why screw that chemistry up?
And honestly Devin Harris gave fits to a lot of WC teams because of his quickness and defense on the perimeter, when is the last time you saw Jason Kidd draw a charge?
The Mavs were contenders before the trade, and are still good now, but I just don't think they needed to make that move, they were already one of the favorites to win it all IMHO.
I think it was a massive risk......I am not saying that Harris is better than Kidd, I am saying the team was better with Harris and Diop than with Kidd....at least IMHO.
DD
They also received some good, serviceable pieces in Allen and Wright. Now, Magloire is terrible right now, but the pick-up of Lue seems to been working out nicely. None of these pieces would have come together if it weren't for the trade. As it stands, the bench and the 2nd lineup is stronger than it was (Lue, Terry, Bass, Wright/George and Allen). The team as a whole got stronger, especially mentally, after this move was made. For any big trade, you have to give it a couple years to see how things pan out, but as it stands it's been good so far.
Kidd, Lue, Allen and Wright > Harris and Diop.
Mavs are better.
Also, would a team of:
Harris
Terry
Dirk
Howard
Dampier
w/bench of Bass, Stack, Diop, George and Hassell
Beat:
Kidd
Stack
Howard
Dirk
Dampier
w/ bench of Lue, Bass, Wright/George and Allen?
Likely not, especially if you factor into how much better Dirk-B has become now that Kidd is on his team.
First of all, I am happy you admit it was one bad matchup that had been following us for two years even before the playoffs.
The talent of the team was unquestionable, but the body language wasn't there. All you have to do is look at how Dirk is playing. Those guys were starting to tune out Avery as well, so the future wasn't looking that bright.
Kidd doesn't draw charges, but the man has his hand on any ball within the painted area. He steals, deflects, and starts the fast break in a way Harris couldn't. Harris was a bit better as a defender on fast guards, Kidd is better on the big guards. But Kidd is a much better team defender. And this team is playing great defense right now.
Many people have agreed that losing Diop hurts. Not because he was better than Damp, only silly Spurs fans say that. Damp is one of the best post defenders/rebounders in the leauge. But it hurts our depth. Hopefully the new additions can make up for it.
It was a risk, but it seems like it's paying off. We have the same winning percentage now that we did before the trade. It's hard to say that the team was better with Harris. All signs point out, to this current team being better with Kidd.
Again, only the playoffs will say that for sure.
It seems the main rationale against the trade is that Harris is 10 years younger, is a better defender against quicker guards Dallas is likely to see in the playoffs, and the Mavs gave up valuable interior defense with Diop at a time when the West frontlines got bigger.
Harris is younger -- Dallas is going for a le this year and next, they're not worried about what Devin is going to be doing 5 years from now. Given the cap space they'll be getting when Kidd's contract comes off the books, they'll have the funds to either resign him at a lower price or get his replacement.
Harris is a better defender against quicker guards -- Harris has been lit up just as bad by Parker, Paul and Williams as Kidd. His defensive skills have been wildly overrated.
Diop only played 10 minutes a game anyways. They can make up what he gave them with a center by committee of Dampier, Allen, Bass and Dirk.
I understand this is what you think but it's wrong. It wasn't even that massive a risk imo. Harris does not appear to be the point guard that we needed to get us out of an isolation mode offense. His playmaking just was not good enough to do so. The benefit that the Spurs had was ginobbli who could make plays with the ball as well. They also DID have a low-post threat to throw it to in Duncan, the mavs do not and will not. Dirk can play in the low-post, as well as josh, kidd...but they weren't going to make their living there.
We needed a lot more ball movement and we needed a captain of the team, that is not what devin was going to provide.
The "easy" thing to do was nothing while saying that we won 67 games last year. We won that in spite of atrocious point guard play. Dirk was just that good for the last two years. Even though just about every basket was contested he still made them.
The draft picks are fodder, diop was a benefit but he was only getting mop-up minutes behind bass and hassell/ager were junk.
We got:
- HOF point guard who already runs the team. And will probably not be hurt again this year unlike (imo) devin will be. Knock on wood for both.
- Two better bench players in Malik Allen (offensively vs diop) and Wright (anything versus Trenton Hassell)
- A backup point in Lue who we wouldn't have gotten without Kidd in the lineup.
At the end of the games we won't be just tossing the ball to dirk and saying he there big fella win it for us willya'. It will be dirk AND kidd's team. Dirk's been shouldering this thing long enough imo.
Let's say that the spurs could trade parker and duncans' shooting percentage and interest level would go up 10points. Assuming they've never won a championship?? Would you do it? Probably...
Again the EASY thing to do is nothing, the ballsy thing to do was this trade.
I don't know why Dallas' regular-season record from a year ago is relevant at all. Yeah, it was a fun ride while it was going on, but it meant jack after losing to Golden State, and Dirk would be the first person to tell you that. Their record this year isn't as good, because teams are copying the approach that the Warriors took. When the League has figured you out, you either execute better or get different personnel.
I appreciate the tone of the last few posts, it is a reasonable discussion and that is all I ever want.
I can see how you guys believe it was a good trade, and how it opened up room for Lue etc.....
I guess we shall have to wait and see, we had Lue in Houston, and we unloaded him a couple of years ago, he was not that impressive, but it could have been another JVG situation, where he just did not fit into his role in Houston.
I think the Mavs are still in the race, but my whole thing is that they were already in the race before the trade....
However, if you guys are saying that the team is turning on Avery and that Kidd was brought in to help mend the fences, then I concede it might have been worth the risk.
I guess time will tell, but IMHO, it was a panic move.
DD
And over his entire career? You're saying he simply wasn't surrounded by the right pieces eh? Misunderstood so to speak......
Perhaps at this pace we'll get a peek at him on both Saturday and Sunday at next years All-Star extravaganza.
I haven't seen him take a bad shot yet. His shot selection is excellent, he knows he's not the greatest jumpshooter and he picks his spots carefully. As stated earlier, his 3-point shot from the wings is pretty reliable. He tends to brick anything mid-range though.And over his entire career? You're saying he simply wasn't surrounded by the right pieces eh? Misunderstood so to speak......
Perhaps at this pace we'll get a peek at him on both Saturday and Sunday at next years All-Star extravaganza.
All I heard last year was "all those wins don't mean unless you win it all". All I hear this year is "you won 67 games last year, why trade them away!"
It's one or the other, Spur Fan & Rocket Fan can't have it both ways when talking about Dallas. The Mavericks with Devin Harris failed, bottom line, and would have continued to fail. A shakeup was necessary. Will it work? Nobody knows, and honestly I have my doubts. But the trade had to happen.
Something else on this line from a local writer of sport. David Lord..
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=334
The biggest plus is that Kidd has brought the leadership intangibles this team has needed. Harris may continue for many years to be an effective scoring guard who handles the ball, but we must recognize that he - while sometimes electric and a very fine player - was a long ways away from becoming a floor general. Those PER stats that so many touted to dis this trade can measure a player's offensive impact, but what has this Mavs team needed most, one more scorer, or a leader? Kidd's that leader, and we feel that's the biggest reason why his impact has been and will continue to be transcendent on this Mavs group.
Second, while we acknowledge that Kidd is older, in the next few years can we say with any certainty that Harris will play more games? No. In the last few seasons, it is the older Kidd rather than the younger Harris who has been more reliable. And in our estimation, now that the Mavs have him, aren't they likely to keep Kidd for multiple years rather than one or two? If the Mavs can end up with 4 or 5 years of this sort of play from Kidd, then no matter what Harris does, it will be seen as a great trade for Dallas. And we like the odds on that outcome.
Third, while Harris may be the more effective scorer, Kidd is an impact player who changes the whole dynamic of the game. His ability to see and make passes to players away from the ball makes the defense defend all five players, not just the one or two closest to the ball. With Kidd the Mavs gained something they've wanted for several years: the ability to score in the paint, given his ability to find the open man near the basket.
How about losing pieces like Diop and the draft picks? We hated to see Diop go, but we have to admit that in Avery's pecking order, he wasn't going to be a factor anyhow. The same applies to the picks: hate to lose them. But to go from Harris to Kidd, from a scorer to an impact player who can provide leadership, it was worth it.
oh really? cuz I saw a bunch of bull and untrue claims...
But I do appreciate the tone of your posts after I called you out.
Kidd >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harris.
To me, it makes no doubt that Dallas is a way better team after the trade than before it. The loss of Harris and Diop will hurt Mavs in certain matchups but Kidd's talent could overcome that.
Another downside of this trade is that it reduced Mavs Championship window. In 2009, Mavs will have a big hole at the PG spot. They will have to find a starting quality PG with only the MLE available or hope that a 37 years old Kidd can still be efficient enough to be a starting PG.
Those are just opinions and fairly tame as well.
But they are all 100% accurate.
I keeed...I keeed.
DD
Truthfully, one of the best parts of that trade seems to be the combination of getting Kidd and getting rid of Diop, because I've never seen Dampier play better without wearing a Warriors jersey.
Dirk and Harris were a great combination, but the way things were heading it looks like Harris was destined for Beno status as long as AJ was the coach, and judging by the revisionist history from the people that supposedly know the most about the Mavs (some of those singing Harris' praises since the 2006 playoffs), it looks like the fans were turning on him anyway. Barea made a good case early to be the point guard of the future, and he can learn more from Kidd than he would have from Harris. Since the Mavericks were dominant for the year and a half that Harris was healthy, I'm not sure how he deserves all the blame for two embarassing playoff failures.
I contend that Kidd isn't much of a step up, but he's been shooting great and his team defense has been very good, and the infusion of energy while getting rid of someone everyone was starting to hate makes it a great trade. Harris wasn't part of the nucleus of the Mavs, and adding a healthy Kidd to a Mavs team with some confidence can be dangerous in the playoffs.
Kidd's age means they have to win now to make the trade worth it, even if Devin Harris doesn't continue to develop
Mavs needed a heart transplant, and thats what J-Kidd was...he brought new life to what was a dead team
The implication that Devin Harris is the reason the team had no heart. I'm sure Dirk, Josh, Jerry, Jason and Avery are all relieved that they got their slates wiped clean with one trade.
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