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Steve Nash has missed 7 games the last two seasons with the Phoenix Suns. Amare played in all 7 of those games Nash missed. His stats are in those 7 games:
24.6 ppg
11.6 rpg
50% FG
One poor game against the Mavs where he didn't adjust in the second half to a defense he wasn't used to. That's what a lot of people are basing their opinion on. I'm not saying Amare is flawless. He obviously has to work on his game, especially defensively. And, he has to improve against double teams. He's still a top 5 power forward in the league. I just disagree with anyone who thinks differently. Of course he doesn't have Tim Duncan caliber defense or post moves. No other power forward in the league does. But, Amare is good at what he does, and that is score off the pick-and-roll. Karl Malone made a legendary career out of it. And, that's what Amare is doing. He's making a career out of scoring from the pick-and-roll. And, if he is limited in the low post, so be it. If he's that limited, his ability to score 25 ppg on 58% shooting is that much more impressive. He has a great point guard and a system that fits his skills and abilities, and he's taking advantage of it.
Steve Nash has missed 7 games the last two seasons with the Phoenix Suns. Amare played in all 7 of those games Nash missed. His stats are in those 7 games:
24.6 ppg
11.6 rpg
50% FG
I'm not even going to argue who is better between Garnett or Dirk.
Just want to point out that Dirk is NOT a post player.
^Neither is Amare or Bosh. And Boozer, Sheed, and Brand too spend most of the time facing the basket. I think we are well beyond the point where a PF is a smaller version of the center.
I just want to point out Dirk can hit shots like 3's and has been to a championship. I'm not even going to argue who is better, just wanted to point that out.
Dirk is 1b???? 1b?????
Come on man. Your objectivity can't be that clouded. Now, all of a sudden, just because Dirk actually "tries" more at defense, it's enough to disregard the fact that he still is poor at the defensive end? All those criticisms about Amare not being a post player, and Dirk has little to no post game either. He's a face-up jump shooter who can dribble. He doesn't even post up when smaller guys are defending him.
KG plays defense. And, while he's not the explosive scorer Dirk is, he is capable of carrying the load offensively and is the better passer.
As for Rasheed, talent wise, he's probably around the top 5 in the league, maybe somewhere between 5-10 among power forwards. Overall, he's probably somewhere around a top 10 PF in the league, maybe higher or lower depending on your opinion. But, he plays above average defense. As for his midrange game, he's quite adept with the midrange jumper, especially from the baseline, not just with the short turn-around. The Pistons offense does not put Sheed in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers. He's pretty much either down low on the block or at the top of the key, as it helps with offensive spacing. And, I since when was the ability to put the ball on the floor so necessary for a power forward/center, especially one that is on a team that has three above average ball handlers on the team? Sheed rarely if ever needs to put the ball on the floor. When he touches the ball in the halfcourt set, it's either to shoot, make a post move, or make a pass. The offense doesn't require him to put the ball on the floor or go one-on-one. As for his footwork, his footwork is as good as any other power forward in the league after Duncan and maybe Boozer.
I think there's something to be said of having a versatile power forward who is capable of facing up and putting the ball on the floor. But, in Dirk's case, he has almost no post-up ability at all. It's one thing if a power forward doesn't post up much, but it's quite another if a player simply can't.
Yeah, Dirk sucks.
My criticism of Amare is that he can't create his own shot, not that he can't post up. And in that regards he is way behind some of the elite PFs of this game.
And Dirk's post up is ok, he has the turnaround mastered. The Warriors stopped him by swarming him, not by taking advantage of his lack of post up game. Ask Marion of Bowen if Dirk can't post up.
Dirk post defense is good man, I don't know how often you see people dominate him in the post like they do against Amare. He actually has played excellent defense at times against KG, J.O'Neal, Brand, Sheed (who got exited one game after scoring 20 points on him). He gets in trouble against quicker players, because of the fact that the Mavs switch a lot during pick and rolls. But I don't think anyone can expect him to constantly guard guys like that. The Mavs were in the top 10 defensively in the league, even top 5 at times, during the past 3 years. So I don't know how much of a liability he really is.
Honestly look at that ranking, and tell me anyone who has achieved more than Dirk. If you want me to just say that he is second, instead of 1b, fine. But no, KG is not better than Dirk. I have never seen KG take over games, and that is what the great stars in the league do. Dirk has done it countless times.
I don't wanna go too much into detail about Sheed, but having lived in Michigan for 4 years I have seen a lot of him. Rarely have I seen him shoot midrange shots. His footwork is terrible at times, he is very flat footed actually. The pistons always put Ben on the quicker frontcourt players. Not only is he outside Dirk's league when it comes to footwork/agility (who isn't when it comes to PFs?) but he is way beyond others. And that to me is the main reason that limits him. His creativity is limited, and that is why he can't just take over games like some of the other stars can, not because he is 'unselfish'. That is also true for KG man. His offensive repertoire is limited for a man considered to be a top 5 player in the league.
Anyway, this is an Amare thread, and I don't want to turn it into a total analysis of the PFs in the league.
Dirk's great.
I just don't believe he's better than Kevin Garnett.
Yet he has achieved more than him throughout their careers. He also completely dominated him in their lone playoff encounter, and usually does pretty well anytime they meet.
It is an Amare thread, but I'll address a couple things...
-Rasheed doesn't shoot a lot of midrange jumpers. When he does, he shoots them rather effectively. Again, the offense does not put him in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers.
-Dirk's post defense might be adequate, but I wouldn't say it's "excellent." His size, length, and athleticism should allow him to be decent. Then again, post defense is not the only aspect of defense. Overall, I'd still classify him as a below average defender.
-Being creative offensively and being able to create your own shot and having a broad offensive repertoire is definitely a positive for a player to have. Those things alone are not enough to make a player greate. Otherwise a player like Jamal Crawford, who also hits clutch shots (just not in the playoffs because he hasn't really been in the playoffs), would be considered one of the great players in the league.
Maybe Sheed doesn't shoot a lot of those jumpers because he can't put himself in a position to do so more often. Or just because he is good only when they are wide open. I don't think that any coach would underestimate such a part of his game if it was really that developed. I don't buy into the whole 'unselfish' argument totally.
I said I have seen Dirk play excellent defense at times, even against elite PF in the league. That is way more than I can say about Amare. Dirk is not a great defender, but a liability he is not. I don't think Dirk's defense has cost the team anything in these last two years.
It's certainly good to be creative offensively. And great players in this league need to have toolbox with more than one or two moves, in order to take games over. Crawford does it at times, not consistently, that's the thing. Sheed might have one or two big games, that's it. Dirk does it night in and night out, and that separates them, as well as Dirk from KG.
Neither is Garnett.
I'm sick of debating the Dirk vs. KG crap. Dirk > KG. End of that story.
As for Sheed... IMO, Rasheed is arguably the most talented PF in NBA history. He can play both the 4 and 5. Athletic. Incredible shooting range. Fantastic post ability. Very strong defender. Smart. Good passer. The guy had the whole package, but was never really committed to developing into what he could have been. IMO, he had a mix between Duncan and Dirk abilities. But didn't quite have the determination and work ethic of either to become the best player he could be, like they do.
When a 23 year old Dirk, dominated a in his peak 26 year old KG with a very good Minny team in 2002 it should have ended this conversation once and for all. Yet the stereotypes that affect both players (good ones for KG, bad ones for Dirk) completely shadow their history.
Uh coaches will generally coach to the strengths of a player. It's why you don't see Dirk in the low post with his back to the basket much at all. Rasheed can shoot a midrange jumper. Because it's better for the team to have him on the low block or out at the top of the key for spacing when Billups or Prince is posting up, Sheed doesn't shoot many midrange jumpers. It's not his strength. He is definitely capable.
I wouldn't call Dirk a liability necessarily either. But, if a player is below average, then he's below average. And, as with many things in the game, just because a player doesn't do something defensively to cost the game in the final moments, it doesn't mean the poor defense throughout the game didn't play a factor in costing a game.
Hitting clutch shots is an extremely valuable aspect of a player's game. Don't get me wrong. It's very, very important. But, it's not the only factor in evaluating how good a player is. Plus, being clutch can also mean also making a clutch defensive play or stop, making the game-winning assist or setting a game winning screen for an open shot, or getting a game changing rebound. If you want to use making clutch shots as one of the main reasons evaluating players, you could argue a guy like Carlos Boozer is better than Dirk, KG, and Duncan.
Argue it.
^Exactly, with his touch and skill Sheed shouldn't be far away from Dirk in the mid range shooting abilities. Yet he clearely hasn't worked on that aspect of the game. He is capable, but it SHOULD be a strength of his.
I have said all I can say about the other stuff, but Boozer has not hit the clutch shots that Dirk or Duncan have. Not even close. Dirk has missed a couple, which a media which never liked him much decided to show over and over again as if MJ never missed shots like that. But he has been hit numerous big shots for the Mavs. Boozer had one good run in the playoffs. Yet the Jazz continue to be a middle of the way team in the West, and I don't see this group ever becoming a dominant team. Regardless, that's it for this argument from me.
Dirk > KG, because history says so.
Just quick question then.
Should Chris Webber be considered the better player than Dirk Nowitzki?
This season in the clutch, Carlos Boozer shoots 57.7% from the field.
Dirk 42.3%.
Garnett 41.0%.
Duncan 52.6%.
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
Sometimes people misconstrue "clutch" shots as only game-winning or game-tying attempts in the final seconds of a game. You can be clutch before that as well. Being up 3 points with less than a minute and hitting a big jumper to make it a 5 point game, and it never gets to a last second shot. Hitting back-to-back three pointers with two minutes left in the game to go from down 2 points to up 4 points and again not allowing it to get to a last second shot.
How so? MVP, Finals, consitently leading his team into the playoffs. Memorable games while being there. Dirk has it all over Webber. He also owned him at times during their matchups in the playoffs. However the one matchup that decided those series was Bibby v. Nash, anytime one was better than the other his team advanced. Any Mavs or Kings fan will tell you that, and Bibby usually beat Nash. That is why the Kings were 2-1 in series during those years. It's the reason Nash was let go after 04, when only Dirk showed up from the Mavs in that series. Check the boxscores if you don't believe me.
I see Dirk as 3rd on that list, while also being great from the stripe and also hitting 3pt field goals. And he has been there for a couple of years, I know 82games has it somewhere. If anything you should show this list to people who think Dirk is not clutch.
Bad argument. Using that stat then means you have to make a case for Stackhouse and Josh Howard being more clutch than Kobe Bryant. Or even Boozer being more clutch than Kobe Bryant.
Look at all the stats, as you can see that Boozer has a massive 75% of them assisted to him. And you know that those assisted shots are just dunks and layups.
Webber played better overall in both the 2004 and 2002 series between the two teams. Dirk had one or two very good games in each of those series. Webber's team won both those series. The only time Dirk and the Mavs beat the Kings was in 2003 when Webber only played in two games because he was injured. Webber outplayed Dirk for the most part in those two series.
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