Good thing we traded for Kurt Thomas...

[whottt]

Whottt, you honestly think that if we had Barry and Horry the Spurs would have won the game tonight?

No...I think if we had them our offense wouldn't suck like it has since they've been out...it hasn't before.

What'd you think? That Barry and Horry would give some of their toughness to Duncan?

I think our offense would be better with them...they don't stupid stuff with the ball.

Or did you think that they'd be able to stop Amare and Shaq from totally dominating the paint?

I think they'd help our offense score more points...

Or did you think they'd be able to contain Steve Nash's dribble penetrations and pick and rolls?
Or that they'd be able to stay in front of Barbosa and defend him?

I think we'd be a better offensive team with them...

In fact I absolutely guarantee we would be.

You're seriously overvaluing those two players, at this point in their careers and what they can bring.

You are seriously wrong if you think Vaughn and Udoka are better offensive players...or if Finley does all the things they do.


I promise you...if you think that Miss. 1P1, you are more wrong about that than you have ever been about anything concerning basketball previously ever.

Spurs would obviously be a better team with them, but I don't think they'll solve all the problems and holes the Spurs obviously have in their game this season.

Our offense won't suck as bad when they come back...they make the best decisions with the ball of any players on the team...and they tend to be good 3 point shooters...


Why don't you take a look at what Barry was shooting from 3, look at how many threes he was attempting, and then look at what our team is shooting...and tell me that won't help our offense. Horry is having a down year, but he was picking up when he got injured...and he still draws respect from everyone at the 3 line. And he almost always makes good decisions with the ball....a bad game for him would be considered a good one for Udoka and Vaughn.


They do matter...are they enough to win us a le? Maybe, maybe not.



Are we good enough to win a le without them?


Absolutely
Unequivocably
Beyond all doubt
With complete and totally certainty...


Not.

[1Parker1]

Whott, Spurs lack of offense is not what ultimately has cost the Spurs games against the likes of not just the Suns tonight, but against teams like the Hornets, Pistons, Celtics, etc this season. Spurs have not been executing well at crunch time, their peremeter defense is the worst out of all the championship years, Duncan is having a very up and down season and has not shown yet that he can adjust to quick and hard double teams and physical play for some reason.

While yes, our offense was stagnant tonight and perhaps a few extra 3 points by Horry/Barry would have helped us spread the floor, Spurs ultimately could not stop Amare, Shaq, and Nash and the Suns role players. Let's face it, Barry isn't exactly known for his defensive prowess.

[1Parker1]

Some Big losses this season...it wasn't offense that hurt the Spurs.

Hornets were too athletic for the Spurs and they had no answer for David West and Chris Paul. Offense wasn't the problem against them.

Utah played physical on Duncan, put a long defender on Ginobili, and basically lived with Parker scoring. Again, even though the Spurs couldn't score to save their life, their peremeter defense against guys like Okur, Williams, and Korver was suspect. I don't think Horry and Barry could have helped much there, except they would have probably helped make the final score a little more respectable.

Celtics ultimately beat the Spurs, not because the Spurs couldn't put points on the board, but because the Spurs couldn't stop their peremeter players; Pierce, House, Casell, etc. Again, I don't know if Horry and Barry would have helped much there.

Spurs struggling to score is nothing new. Yes, it seems this worse this season more so than others as the offensive droughts seem farther and farther apart, but ultimately the Spurs look very slow and unatheltic against the top teams in the league this season and Horry and Barry certaintly aren't going to help the Spurs in that regard.

[T Park]

Well, outside of the Big 3, the Spurs "offensive weapons" include a streaky Michael Finley, Bruce Bowen Corner 3's, a streaky Ime Udoka, and Jacque Frickin Vaughn.

Those are your next 4 scoring options. That's just plain scary.

Yeah that Finley Bowen and Vaughn were horrible in the playoffs last year.

Keep it up, your finding new depths of stupidity.

[1Parker1]

Yeah that Finley Bowen and Vaughn were horrible in the playoffs last year.

Keep it up, your finding new depths of stupidity.

T_Park, I'm not even going to bother wasting my time. If you want to be a head, go right ahead.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

So is Bowen to blame when it comes to perimeter D? Seeing as how he is our #1 defender.

I'm just trying to figure out if Spurs are simply lazy on rotations out on the perimeter, or if this team has some degraded in the defense department. Plus, wasn't Udoka supposed to be a Bruce Bowen Jr on perimeter D? I thought he played very well defensively tonight, but I you are right in that we are struggling with athletic/outside shooters.


In regards to Utah, the Spurs played superb defense for 24 minutes, and it was the same deal with the Suns (held them to only one 3 ball by halftime...which wasn't made until there was 4 seconds left in the half).

So I'd like to believe the defense is still there, but I keep going back to the stagnant offense that reminds me of the glory days of 2000-2002.

[T Park]

T_Park, I'm not even going to bother wasting my time. If you want to be a head, go right ahead.

"I've lost the arguement so I have no comeback"

Thanks.

[T Park]

So is Bowen to blame when it comes to perimeter D? Seeing as how he is our #1 defender.

I'm just trying to figure out if Spurs are simply lazy on rotations out on the perimeter, or if this team has some degraded in the defense department. Plus, wasn't Udoka supposed to be a Bruce Bowen Jr on perimeter D? I thought he played very well defensively tonight, but I you are right in that we are struggling with athletic/outside shooters.


In regards to Utah, the Spurs played superb defense for 24 minutes, and it was the same deal with the Suns (held them to only one 3 ball by halftime...which wasn't made until there was 4 seconds left in the half).

So I'd like to believe the defense is still there, but I keep going back to the stagnant offense that reminds me of the glory days of 2000-2002.

Ya know this looks identical to your posts last year, so that makes me feel better.

I love how after one night, everyone is ready to throw Bruce Bowen back under the bus.

[polandprzem]

Yeah that Finley Bowen and Vaughn were horrible in the playoffs last year.

Keep it up, your finding new depths of stupidity.

Living with the past don't we?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm not ready to throw Bowen under anything.

I was just asking honest questions in regards to 1Parker1 discussing the lack of Spurs' perimeter D.

Bowen was the least of my worries tonight.

[T Park]

Living with the past don't we?

Not at all.

Finley was 4 of 5 tonight.


But yet the polish never were made fun of for being smart.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Finley's polish??

[1Parker1]

I'm not ready to throw Bowen under anything.

I was just asking honest questions in regards to 1Parker1 discussing the lack of Spurs' perimeter D.

Bowen was the least of my worries tonight.

No it's definitely not Bowen. Bowen can only guard one player at a time out there. Against the Hornets for example, I thought he did a great job on Peja on the peremeter, limiting his 3 point shooting. But then he got switched to Chris Paul, and Peja just went off.

Against the Celtics, I believe he ended up switching to Pierce in the 4th quarter, but then guys like Casell and House started hurting the Spurs.


Spurs lack of offense is obviously an issue, I wasn't exactly disputing that fact. My point was that even if the Spurs had Barry/Horry, I don't know exactly how much of a help that would be considering all the Spurs other problems this season...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm just hoping that had we had Barry/Horry we could've gotten Phoenix to move away from the zone faster. The best remedy to break the zone is obviously strong outside shooting. But you're right in that Brobert Borry wouldn't have the difference between a W-L tonight.

The one thing Barry did have going in his favor besides his solid outside shooting was his ability to improve the Spurs ball movement. I thought that was one of his more underrated abilities. Who knows what he'll be like when/if he returns.

[polandprzem]

Not at all.

Finley was 4 of 5 tonight.

I'm jumping up and down

[timvp]

That Shaq improved their half court defense is not something that can be overcome...it's also something that was obvious to myself the second the trade was made..

He's 7'1, 300+lbs, and he knocks the out of people...it matters.

And anyone that thinks players are pussies for that....feel free to get your ass out there and get the knocked out of you by Shaq.

Agreed. Shaq may be old and be a s of his former self. But he's still the biggest, strongest, baddest mufvkcer in the league. It's all smiles and giggles until you see the team you root for try to beat him.

I still can't understand why most Spurs fans were happy when this trade went down. It's like they've never seen a Shaq team before. I don't care if Shaq is 40 years old. As long as his knees and ankle hold up, he's at the very worst a talented space eater who forces inside-out teams to completely alter their strategy.

PS: our offense will improve when/if Barry and Horry get back...another no brainer...

Eh, that will help but the Spurs can still get their offense back in gear without them. They scored 100+ points on 50+% in five straight games before this latest three game funk.

The biggest problem to me is the Spurs are playing at waaaaay too slow of a pace. I mean, the Suns shot 51% and only scored 96 points ... that shows you how slow the Spurs have made the pace. Usually if the Suns shoot 51% they are going for 120 at least.

Parker is the only one trying to push the pace and even he isn't running as much as he did during that five game streak. But outside of Parker, when is the last time you saw a player pushing the ball on the break? If you squint, I swear you can almost see Terry Porter on the court at times . . .

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The biggest problem to me is the Spurs are playing at waaaaay too slow of a pace. I mean, the Suns shot 51% and only scored 96 points ... that shows you how slow the Spurs have made the pace. Usually if the Suns shoot 51% they are going for 120 at least.

Parker is the only one trying to push the pace and even he isn't running as much as he did during that five game streak. But outside of Parker, when is the last time you saw a player pushing the ball on the break? If you squint, I swear you can almost see Terry Porter on the court at times . . .

"It's turned into a concern because that's three games we really struggled offensively," Manu Ginobili said. "We didn't score more than 80 this weekend. The main concern is offensively. We're just not sharp enough. We're not making shots. We're playing too slow. So we've got to work on that."

[vander]

Unless he's going to run screen and rolls with Manu, there is no reason for Oberto to be in there. KT for 40 minutes!!!!

[whottt]

Eh, that will help but the Spurs can still get their offense back in gear without them. They scored 100+ points on 50+% in five straight games before this latest three game funk.

Those two guys raise the basketball IQ of our team...Barry on offense, Horry period.

In the case of Barry his style play is contagious and it's something the Spurs pick up on easily and it's a mindset they tend to stay in even after he goes out of the game. He is always thinking ball movement...

Horry does that too, but he also plays to the strengths of the others guys on the floor..

Plus, he's actually the second best shotblocker on the team now.

The biggest problem to me is the Spurs are playing at waaaaay too slow of a pace. I mean, the Suns shot 51% and only scored 96 points ... that shows you how slow the Spurs have made the pace. Usually if the Suns shoot 51% they are going for 120 at least.

Parker is the only one trying to push the pace and even he isn't running as much as he did during that five game streak. But outside of Parker, when is the last time you saw a player pushing the ball on the break? If you squint, I swear you can almost see Terry Porter on the court at times . . .

The Spurs are playing too much on one basketball on offense, and they don't have the personnel to pull that off...they aren't the Mavs.

Horry and Barry are consumate team players and our team play will improve once they return. And if they don't return, there's nothing we can do about it...we may have some nice offensive games, but we will not be as good of a team in ball movement and floor spacing and just overall team offensive play.



TO me that's not the alarming thing about this game...


Jacque Vaughn is what he is, Udoka is what he is....just like Rasho is what he was etc.



The alarming thing to me was how freaking clueless Pop was this game....I hope he just had too many bottles of wine and that this won't be a trend aganst the Suns.




I seriously had Bob Hiill flashbacks in this game.

[S_A_Longhorn]

Unless he's going to run screen and rolls with Manu, there is no reason for Oberto to be in there. KT for 40 minutes!!!!

Run screen and rolls? Is that still allowed in the NBA? Can't tell by watching the Spurs.

Has anyone ever told Pop to do this with Parker? The whole dribbling-while-4-other-guys-watch didn't work to well last night.

[ploto]

I still assert that people are expecting way too much from Barry and Horry. These are not guys who have just had one small injury late in the season and who are coming back from that. They have missed- both of them- huge chunks of the season. Barry has only played in 29 games all season. Horry has only played in 45 games and only 583 minutes all season long. They have a lot to come back from in a very short time, even if that.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I still assert that people are expecting way too much from Barry and Horry. These are not guys who have just had one small injury late in the season and who are coming back from that. They have missed- both of them- huge chunks of the season. Barry has only played in 29 games all season. Horry has only played in 45 games and only 583 minutes all season long. They have a lot to come back from in a very short time, even if that.

So basically what you're telling me, is that the Spurs are screwed

[vander]

Run screen and rolls? Is that still allowed in the NBA? Can't tell by watching the Spurs.

Has anyone ever told Pop to do this with Parker? The whole dribbling-while-4-other-guys-watch didn't work to well last night.

parker can't seem to pass out of them, time after time Duncan rolls towards the basket, open enough, and parker just continues to dribble a hole in the floor, but we're getting off topic here, the main point is that oberto is worthless. his +/- is now at a -6.2, worse than vaughn, worse than ELSON! and keep in mind that he plays with the starters most of the time