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Yeah, sure he doesn't. I'll tell you what else he doesn't do: get raped consistently on defense like Nash.
They didn't win 67 games this year. The league is deeper, and the improvement of Portland, Golden State, Denver, Utah and Portland has to come from somewhere. It came at the expense of less wins for Dallas, San Antonio and Phoenix.
I think the trade was partly a response to what LA and Phoenix did, plus the fact that the Spurs were still going to be around.Instead they bring in another player to essentially provide leadership.
That shorts what Miami did in the Finals. Wade was unstoppable. Riley outcoached Avery, he made some great adjustments that Avery couldn't counter. And considering that they won three games by a total of six points, that really falls into the category of could've gone either way. Dirk showed up and came to play in the final two games after it was deadlocked. He deserves some criticism, but it's just cliche speak to put everything on him. He doesn't win or lose games by himself.Dirk has had a team with sufficient talent to win the le. If you beat the Spurs in the playoffs, there should be no question that you can and SHOULD go on to win a championship.
I don't think they're better than Boston. That's just facile. The Kidd trade isn't a slam dunk, it's just a reasonable gamble.KG gets criticized and he had only one team that was even in the realm of gaining a le. Now that Dirk has Kidd on his team, that's a team that should win a le, even in the loaded West
Yeah, sure he doesn't. I'll tell you what else he doesn't do: get raped consistently on defense like Nash.
I would take Nash over Kidd any day of the week. Nash's offense is clearly better because teams have to respect his shooting on the run. Kidd needs to be stationary to shoot and not pressured. This ability Nash allows him to break down defenses so much easier because you will get burned if you go under the pick.
I would give Nash an edge on offense because of his outside shooting, but their ability to run the break and break down a defense is equal. Kidd can't guard CP3, Deron Williams or Tony Parker, but nobody can, including Devin Harris, but he is absolutely a HUGE upgrade at defense over Nash.
I saw your comments, they were excellent, I know what you said is probably killing those warrior fans inside.
Cry Havoc, my point about Jordan is that even he, the GOAT, missed a bunch of game winners. Let's not even talk about Kobe, Billups, LeBron. They all have missed plenty. Yet any time Dirk misses one, it's all about choking, eventhough he too has made plenty game winners and pressure shots.
And that is the double standard I am talking about. It's unbeliavable that players that have yet to make the finals or even sniff the MVP like Melo, Arenas, Billups, KG (yes he won the MVP), TMac get more credit than he does. The last three years Dirk has been arguably statistically the best player in the league, and at the very least top 2-3. For that he should be getting much better rep than he does.
Just off,
This is exactly how I feel...
I would never call Dirk a choker. Except for last year, and that's just because it's fun to rib you guys, just like when you beat us in 06.
Melo, Arenas, and Billups are all FAR below Dirk on my list, especially of players I would like to see in a Spurs uni. I think Billups is decent but definitely not a night-in night-out threat like Dirk. Tmac is a joke, and a first round flameout, anyone who gives him more credit than Dirk lives in Houston or is just an absolute moron. Look at the vote on the thread near this: 46 to 6 in favor of Dirk. So you have 5 Rockets fans and one homerific Spurs fan who thinks Dirk sucks comparatively.
Which brings us to KG, whom I would rather have (for another season or two) because his defense is stellar and he can play the 3 4 and 5 positions with skill. Dirk is more of a 3/4 guy but doesn't provide the Mavs with a lot of post-defense.
I agree with most of this, except that Dirk needs to find a way to motivate his team to MAKE the plays to win games. It's what a leader does. The three close games he lost indicates that they had chances to win -- Dirk needs to pull out all the stops to get his team the victories.That shorts what Miami did in the Finals. Wade was unstoppable. Riley outcoached Avery, he made some great adjustments that Avery couldn't counter. And considering that they won three games by a total of six points, that really falls into the category of could've gone either way. Dirk showed up and came to play in the final two games after it was deadlocked. He deserves some criticism, but it's just cliche speak to put everything on him. He doesn't win or lose games by himself.
I don't think they're better than Boston. That's just facile. The Kidd trade isn't a slam dunk, it's just a reasonable gamble.
As for Boston, I made the KG reference because up until this season he's been criticized for not winning it all, just like Dirk. Now he's in Boston and the media is spooging themselves over what a great player he is -- something that any REAL basketball fan has known since he came into the league and started posting over 20 and 10 every single freaking game.
But watch: If the Celtics flame-out before the making the Finals, you will see a backlash against KG. Because superstars who don't win championships are lambasted by the media and fans (unless you're a great white-hype from Canada). That's not going to change anytime soon.
Yah, well TMac is one of a REGULAR SEASON player as well.
And likewise, he is a playoff choker.
Basketball's versions of Barry Bonds or A Rod (or Ken Griffey Jr), except not as good in regular season.
Please Explain...
He can't explain he's just being a ing . For the only 2 series he can about, I can counter with the 03, 04, 05, and 06 playoffs. 50 point game against Phoenix, the layup over SA in game 7, etc.
Exactly, that's why I hope Dirk punishes people's teams this year in the playoffs.
The thing is, KG hasn't gotten NEARLY as much criticism as Dirk, EVER. And when it comes to being a leader when it matters and coming through in crunchtime, of all superstars in the league, he is BY FAR the worst.
I still stand by this, when I say that Kevin Garnett is the second most overrated PF in the league, only behind Amare. He is not a leader. He is not a good scorer (gets most of his points off of wide open jumpers or putbacks). His defense is overrated, because he consistently gets his ass kicked by the better PFs/Cs in the league like Duncan, Dirk, Dwight, Amare, etc... watch the dude. He gets a ton of blocks and stops against a bunch of ty PF's and centers, but when he is faced with a challenge like Dirk or Duncan, they ALWAYS play well. I have never seen him simply shut down an elite PF/C. He might be one of the best "garbage" PF/C's that the league has ever seen, in that he does dirty work very well, but thats about all he is good for. He is NOT a leader. Ron Artest described him perfectly, when basically saying that all that shouting and after dunks does not make him a leader, unlike Tim Duncan.
Dirk will always be a "choker" to most...even if he wins a le...people just love to hate on him, for whatever reason.
Peopler over-state things when he fails (or his TEAM fails) and make excuses or just gloss over his successes...
Wow...just...wow...
Last edited by LEONARD; 04-11-2008 at 04:57 PM.
It's because he is a white European. No way would they say Dirk was a choker if he was black. It's a racial thing that all Europeans have to deal with in the hip hop culture of the nba.
True...
KG is a STUD!!
some people may disagree with you, but I don't. I feel that if he was black, that he wouldn't get the criticism that he gets.
I think he's soft and a choker, and I'm a white half-italian and half-south american.
I don't think race has anything to do with it.
This a great post
Agreed. I wish people would respect my opinions more. Yes I've had a fault for bandwagoning in the past but I was younger and immature back than. I did a lot of stupid things. Yes maybe I do look for a different opinion than what everyone else says. I especially can't stand ESPN as they seem biased in a lot of areas. I go by with what I see on the court and yeah I think plus/minus ratio is very important for the value of a player on the court. The more minutes they play, the more accurate the plus/minus ratio and all stats can be.
+1 stretch^
p.s I also agree with most of what you said CryHavoc, nice to see some common ground. But I, like stretch, believe that KG get overrated as well. A superstar has to do the scoring first and foremost. And KG is not great at one thing on offense, which means he'll never take over a game on offense like Dirk and Duncan can.
Also for a man considered to be a shut down defender of all five positions (silly really) I have seen Amare trash him which lead to the famous Marbury quotes about how KG can't hold a candle to Amare; Duncan push him around for a decade now; and Dirk absolutely own him in their lone playoff encounter in 02. KG might be a versatile defender, but it's not like he can really shut down any of the 5 positions. I would rather have Duncan, you know he can't really go out and defend on the perimeter, but on the low block there aren't many better than him.
Plus KG is silly will all that shouting of his. How stupid was his behaviour after the Minny game this year.
It's not just individual people, it's the general at ude of the media.
Like how alot of black players in all sports have "natural gifts" and are "born athletes", while alot of white players are "smart and scrappy" or "fundamentally sound". Dallas sports radio makes fun of that stuff all the time.
As if all black players are just lazy slags who get by on talent alone, and all white players are uncoordinated goofs who maximize their ability by being smart.
It's racist both ways, and it definitely exists in sports media.
I don't know if Dirk wouldn't be as criticized if he was black, I think anybody who had the failures Dirk has experienced will have to suffer that type of criticism. And generally if a guy is going to get roasted by the media, a black athlete will get it alot worse than a white one.
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