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I've been trying to tell people this, but they will tell you "I don't believe this" without watching any tape. Or bring up old videos from seasons before. It is what it is. I hope we can pair him with Wemby.
You are looking for worst case scenarios for the Spurs with the Hawks going elsewhere rather than what the Hawks want or need.
They are the 10th worst team with no 1st rounders 2025-2027. Trading away their far and away best player will result in a worse performance 2025 at the least.
DJ, the Lakers 14thish picks, MLE and the scrubs will likely be awful 2026 and 2027 too. We have their picks all 3 years.
On face value without looking at what the Spurs offer, there is no upside for the Hawks. You can put the Raptors and their 7th pick or the Nuggets up in the 20s and it's still a deal for the Hawks. We still have their unprotected picks for 3 years.
I would imagine they would rather keep treadmilling with Young at that point.
If the Hawks want to tank and they are already talking to us to do just that then each of their 3 picks becomes a high lottery pick in their hands. Getting 2 or 3 of those could allow them to rebuild.
That deal actually significantly helps the Hawks.
I've been trying to tell people this, but they will tell you "I don't believe this" without watching any tape. Or bring up old videos from seasons before. It is what it is. I hope we can pair him with Wemby.
Assets that are better than getting their 3 picks we have back are what exactly?
The Lakers or Nuggets ty picks? Not even on a 3 to 1 basis.
You think Charlotte, Detroit, or one of the toilet teams is going to swoop in and give them their picks?
Because unless you can come up with top 5 picks or all stars then you aren't even in the ballpark of what the Spurs have on offer.
Potentially the Wizards, Charlotte, or Detroit are better than the ATL picks.
No I don't expect those teams to swoop in with picks, but that wasn't the point.
Of course not, because no toilet team is going to trade for Trae Young but us.
Your point is there are too many variables and you just discounted one example you had. Arguments without basis are to be discarded.
Cool... Please disregard my comments from here on out...you'll be more comfortable...
You said there were too many variables and gave a single example to only discount it out of and the very next post.
Your argument has no basis and is discarded. You can take your toys home if you want.
I gave more than that... I gave an example of things getting toxic with Trae and that they couldn't keep him if that happens..
I gave the example of their thought process being that the picks we hold are a loss leader...
And if had disregarded my 'argument' you would jave moved on....but here you are...
First one just increases their motivation to trade and has no bearing on my argument. That would be a good thing as it makes him cheaper.
As for the second I believe you meant lost cause but the rub here is they are already reportedly talking to us so they don't think that.
What else?
You're argument? I never addressed your argument and i never addressed you period. I addressed the general idea that Atlanta wouldn't trade Trae anywhere except SA.
And i didn't mean lost cause.... I meant lost leader. Would they like to get them back? Sure, but that's not in their control. They can try (which gives us leverage), but any business guy will automatically view them as a lost leader at this point and will evaluate all options to do whats best for his team.
Is getting those picks back in their best interest? I would argue yes, but if we don't value Trae more than those picks they're going to be forced to look at other options. Those are all variables in play right now.
spent cost? sure but they only have so many opportunities.
they can treadmill sure.
they can trade with someone sure. as we have pointed out that the teams with high draft picks are not going to trade for Young. Helping a team 7-30 to improve does not help them.
So that leaves us or some mystical set of all stars that we cannot get in on ourselves.
there are not that many options here.
Why all the Trae Young talk?
The Hawks aren't trading him to the Spurs for what it would take to trade for him and what the Spurs would be willing to trade.
And if we don't want him, what do they do?
Or
If we only think he's worth the lesser of the 25 and 27 picks we hold, what do they do?
There we go. Back with the worst case scenario wishcasting.
Again, we are already talking with them all the way up to the deadline. We want to trade with them.
As for the second you are now reduced to assuming the Spurs are ignorant about past trades and relative values. I do hope they negotiate hard and maximize value.
It's not the worst case scenario.
Those draft picks it would cost to get Young are valuable and will reload the spurs roster which has many needs.
Point taken. You are wishcasting your preferred outcome.
No, you're using your presuppositions as a basis for your argument.
I don't accept your presuppositions at all.
I don't accept that we really want Trae because a biased sports reporter at espn says we do.
I don't accept your definition of relative value.
Basically you want to have a discussion based your presuppositions being 'correct or infallible', and that's nonsense as a basis for a discussion.
You are welcome to argue any point I make. I am trying to make some axiomatic points. Deal with it.
Nothing to deal with.... You brought your argument to me not the other way around. I'm not try to convince you of my view. Your presuppositions are irrelevant to me...
Seeing that I am the only one making the argument that we have the Hawks by the balls and they need to negotiate with the spurs uniquely, I find this line disingenuous.
The PG will always be a liability. There are hardly any PGs that don't get taken advantage of. Trae would be the game manager, not the superstar of the team. He gets paid like a superstar unfortunately but every team will have to pay players like that these days if there anywhere near above average. He wouldn't be coming in to be the superstar though. Wemby has that. Wemby does need help though. Do you get him another star pf that takes away his inside spacing? Or do you go for the opposite end of the spectrum and add someone who adds to his spacing. By a large margin at that.
A great pg and great sf would benefit him the most in my opinion. He needs someone to help lockdown the wings in that hybrid forwars/guard spot.
When it comes to pg, I feel like a strong game manager and someone who can stretch the floor fit him the best.
Is it perfect? Of course not. We would all like that defensive, 3 pt shooting, perfect decision making pg but let's be real.. they don't exist. You have to give someone thing up and when it comes to wembys match, the defense can give. Wemby makes up for those deficiencies. Sochan is a good switch defender on the wing as well. Trae will get covered as good as he could with those two and bring plenty of upside on the offense.
It's just a good match. They compliment eachothers games well. Doesn't mean it's the final solution or perfect. But when you look around the league for what's available.. where else you going? If wemby wants to compete, Spurs don't have a choice. If he's cool with waiting then cool but if he isn't, Trae definitely isn't a bad decision like some are making it out to be.
And if Duncan never had plantar fasciitis or nagging knee issues, he might've won 7 rings instead of 5... The fact still remains that Stockton, Nash, Iverson, and CP3 were each considered premier players of their eras and between them produced zero rings in over 60 combined attempts.
Curry's a different animal because he's the greatest shooter in NBA history. It's crazy that you're trying to argue he's somehow overrated, considering he led a team in a three year charge of 67, 73, and 67 wins, and has 4 rings. Do you honestly think CP3's "almost won a le once or twice" is a better resume than Steph's?
The thread that John Colburn wrote in response is worth reading.
Here's the text version.
I’m not Bball index, but there’s a few factors at play and a lot of them have to do with the way catch alls work.
First, Trae Young is still a bad defender increased awareness, effort, and playmaking notwithstanding.
Second, catch-alls estimate credit for defensive performance
Based on a box score component and an adjusted plus-minus component. Our defensive box score stats are pretty limited so it’s mostly working off of Stocks and defensive rebounds. Obviously things he isn’t compiling a lot of regardless. So when he’s on the floor, they’re going to
Draw the conclusion, that is the weakest Link based on these box score numbers. Then when it sees how poor the Hawks defense is when he is on the floor because of his lower box score component. It is going to hold him most responsible for their underperformance. Whether that’s
Fair schematically is up for some debate. However, were he part of a better defense (and I just wanna point out again did the hawks defense is terrible whether he plays or not) his catchalls would look a lot better because the on-court baseline for the adjusted plus minus stuff
Would be better. And example would be Dame, who unless he has reinvented himself as a defensive player this year at 33 or whatever, suddenly grades out as a significantly better defender, by joining a cohesive infrastructure in Milwaukee.
Finally, I’m not sure that catch-alls still have him basically dead last anyway. He’s at like the 40th percentile in EPM
In sum, Trae Young is not a good defensive player, and the he’s actually good now stuff is probably overblown. On the other hand the biggest difference between Dame’s defensive all-in-ones and Trae’s is the gap between Giannis and Saddiq Bey, not Trae and Dame.
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