AJ Back to the Spurs?

[roycrikside]

Oh. My. God. If I have to tolerate another minute of this AJ nonsense I'm going to lose my mind. TimVP I respect a lot of your knowledge and viewpoints, but I believe on this one instance you have a blind spot (or maybe a soft spot) for AJ, and it probably is for very much the same reason Pop does - namely AJ the player.

Pop is always going to stick up for AJ because if it wasn't for his toughness and leadership in 1999 he probably would've gotten fired, probably would've never gotten another head coaching gig and in Pop's words, "Probably would've been back at Pamona-Pitzer" (or wherever the he coached).

You similarly have that same love for AJ because in some subconscious way you probably think if the Spurs didn't get that first le in '99 they never would've found the requisite cojones for les two, three, or four.

I know it's very hard to do LJ, but I think the point Whott and many others try to make is this - If you could just remove 1999 from the equation and look at Avery's history both before then and after, you'd realize he is one gigantic and completely unworthy of your respect or praise.

Consider that he

1. Trashed the franchise's savior, David Robinson and told him that "Jesus didn't love him" because he played poorly in some basketball game. Perspective much?

2. Made a big stink because Manu Ginobili wanted his uniform number. Who does he think he is, a Hall of Famer? Manu was part of an Argentina team that handed the US their first ever loss while playing with NBA players in the '02 World Championships. That single accomplishment trumped AJ's whole career.

3. He belittled Tony Parker and criticized the decision to draft him. Parker by his second season was a better player than AJ ever was.

4. As coach of the Mavs he constantly preached dirty play, flagrant fouls, and bull macho posturing, thereby rejecting the Spurs culture he supposedly learned from.

5. As coach of the Mavs he routinely lost his composure with the media, blamed referees, pointed fingers at his players and generally acted unprofessionally, again rejecting the Spurs culture he supposedly learned from.

As far as his coaching goes, I agree with others, the theory that he's a great coach is a myth and it has been exposed numerous times. First of all, let's end the "He outcoached Pop" charade, okay? The Mavs outplayed San Antonio ONE FREAKING GAME THE WHOLE SERIES. Game 2, that's it. Games 3 and 4 were outright abominations and anyone who wasn't completely blind and who have half a memory realize it. We "lost" those games because we couldn't win 5 against 8, that simple. We won Games 5 and 6 and Game 7 was a coin flip they lucked out on because of a) a dumb foul by Manu (there, I said it) and b) a total bs non-call against Dirk on Timmy at the end of regulation.

Take the '06 semis out of the equation and show me where AJ outcoaches anybody. They beat Phoenix because the Suns were without Amare. The Heat defense figured them out halfway through Game 3 and Dallas stopped scoring. Don Nelson, another overrated coach, completely handed Avery his hat in '07 and Johnson was so unnerved that he completely changed a lineup that won 67 games that regular season prior to Game 1. In '08 Avery the Genius head coach didn't change the offense at all despite acquiring Jason Kidd in a trade and tried to use him as a round peg to fit a triangular hole by having him be a spot up shooter in an ISO offense. Brilliant! It was obvious that Johnson was against the Kidd trade, but he quit coaching the team in protest and refused to make any adjustments.

What exactly is AJ's coaching claim to fame? His winning percentage? I'm with Sequ on this one (for once) - Big ing Deal. Most rookie coaches aren't given the keys to a 55+ win NBA team. If the '08 Celtics were Doc Rivers' first coaching job, he'd be the all time win % leader. It doesn't mean he's a great coach.

I just wish LJ and TPark could take off the '99 Rose Colored Glasses when it comes to AJ and deal with the totality of his professional career.

Say what you want guys but if I go up to any Spurs fan and ask them which famous Spur I'm talking about and the clue I give is: "Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole 1999 Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Now" I'm pretty sure they'd come up with only one guess:

Avery Frickin' Johnson.

[timvp]

Oh. My. God. If I have to tolerate another minute of this AJ nonsense I'm going to lose my mind. TimVP I respect a lot of your knowledge and viewpoints, but I believe on this one instance you have a blind spot (or maybe a soft spot) for AJ, and it probably is for very much the same reason Pop does - namely AJ the player.

I've always admitted AJ wasn't much of a player. He's the least naturally talented player to have his jersey retired in NBA history. He achieved whatever he achieved as a player due to hard work and drive to win. He had no skill to fall back on.

Pop is always going to stick up for AJ because if it wasn't for his toughness and leadership in 1999 he probably would've gotten fired, probably would've never gotten another head coaching gig and in Pop's words, "Probably would've been back at Pamona-Pitzer" (or wherever the he coached).

Sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

You similarly have that same love for AJ because in some subconscious way you probably think if the Spurs didn't get that first le in '99 they never would've found the requisite cojones for les two, three, or four.

That's not why I respect AJ. But yeah, if the Spurs didn't win that first le, they wouldn't have even been in San Antonio for the next three. To downplay that meaningfulness of that initial championship is ignoring the big picture.

I know it's very hard to do LJ, but I think the point Whott and many others try to make is this - If you could just remove 1999 from the equation and look at Avery's history both before then and after, you'd realize he is one gigantic and completely unworthy of your respect or praise.

Simply not true.

1. Trashed the franchise's savior, David Robinson and told him that "Jesus didn't love him" because he played poorly in some basketball game. Perspective much?

David Robinson considered AJ his best friend before and after those remarks. If Robinson isn't going to hold it against him, why should anyone else? That makes no sense.

2. Made a big stink because Manu Ginobili wanted his uniform number. Who does he think he is, a Hall of Famer?

False. AJ wasn't a part of the backlash that got Manu's number taken away. That was lead by the San Antonio media (Don Harris, in particular).

3. He belittled Tony Parker and criticized the decision to draft him.

Only partly true. AJ didn't criticize the draft decision.

4. As coach of the Mavs he constantly preached dirty play, flagrant fouls, and bull macho posturing, thereby rejecting the Spurs culture he supposedly learned from.

Since Pop has taken over the Spurs, one of main goals has been to eliminate the "soft" label this team had. Pop isn't as open with his demand for physical play but he definitely preaches physical play as much as AJ did with the Mavs. Pop just knows to do that in the lockerroom. AJ was working for the voyeur owner so nothing he did could ever stay behind closed doors.

5. As coach of the Mavs he routinely lost his composure with the media, blamed referees, pointed fingers at his players and generally acted unprofessionally, again rejecting the Spurs culture he supposedly learned from.

Two words: Mark Cuban. Compared to Cuban, AJ doesn't even appear on the radar. Again, Pop's autonomy is a big reason why he can control every last detail. AJ couldn't control any detail.

As far as his coaching goes, I agree with others, the theory that he's a great coach is a myth and it has been exposed numerous times. First of all, let's end the "He outcoached Pop" charade, okay? The Mavs outplayed San Antonio ONE FREAKING GAME THE WHOLE SERIES. Game 2, that's it. Games 3 and 4 were outright abominations and anyone who wasn't completely blind and who have half a memory realize it. We "lost" those games because we couldn't win 5 against 8, that simple. We won Games 5 and 6 and Game 7 was a coin flip they lucked out on because of a) a dumb foul by Manu (there, I said it) and b) a total bs non-call against Dirk on Timmy at the end of regulation.

You just got on AJ for blaming refs and pointing fingers and the very next paragraph you *gasp* blame refs and point fingers.

Classic.

Take the '06 semis out of the equation and show me where AJ outcoaches anybody. They beat Phoenix because the Suns were without Amare. The Heat defense figured them out halfway through Game 3 and Dallas stopped scoring.

Yes because not being able to score has been solved by every quality coach including Gregg Popovich.

Don Nelson, another overrated coach, completely handed Avery his hat in '07 and Johnson was so unnerved that he completely changed a lineup that won 67 games that regular season prior to Game 1.

Are you talking about Warriors '07 or Warriors '91? The overrated Nelson beat a better Spurs team with a worse Warriors team with Larry Brown and Pop on the opposing sideline.

In '08 Avery the Genius head coach didn't change the offense at all despite acquiring Jason Kidd in a trade and tried to use him as a round peg to fit a triangular hole by having him be a spot up shooter in an ISO offense. Brilliant!

What coach in the NBA would seamlessly be able to transform an isolation team to a Jason Kidd led team in the middle of a season? That's an absurdly high expectation.

What exactly is AJ's coaching claim to fame? His winning percentage?

Having the highest winning percentage in NBA history in the regular season and getting the limited talent that was the '06 Mavs two wins from the NBA championship are two impressive feathers in the ol' coaching hat. If you want to dismiss every current coach that hasn't won a championship with their current team, you are only going to have three left standing.

Say what you want guys but if I go up to any Spurs fan and ask them which famous Spur I'm talking about and the clue I give is: "Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole 1999 Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Asshole Now" I'm pretty sure they'd come up with only one guess:

Avery Frickin' Johnson.

Yeah they probably would. But then again, a large majority of Spurs fans are either bangwagoners or weren't even Spurs fans back prior to '99.

I'm fine if you are other Spurs fans want to hang AJ out to dry with Mark Cuban and the rest of the city of Dallas. I honestly couldn't care less. Such Spurs fans can go shoulder to shoulder with Cuban. I'll stay on the other side of the fence with Pop, Robinson, Elliott and AJ's retired jersey.

[Obstructed_View]

I know it's very hard to do LJ, but I think the point Whott and many others try to make is this - If you could just remove 1999 from the equation and look at Avery's history both before then and after, you'd realize he is one gigantic and completely unworthy of your respect or praise.

Even Whottt wouldn't make a point that stupid. The '99 le is part of AJ's history. You can't remove it from the equation, so even suggesting it isn't sensible, but in the six years after he came back from Golden State, AJ averaged 11.6 points and 7.7 assists per regular season game, while missing a grand total of 13 of them. During that time, the Spurs averaged 48 wins per season, including the terrible 20 win season and a strike shortened 50 game season where the Spurs won 37 games. How that is somehow unworthy of either respect or praise completely escapes me. That's even if he didn't lead the team to an NBA le and hit the series clinching shot, which he did.

1. Trashed the franchise's savior, David Robinson and told him that "Jesus didn't love him" because he played poorly in some basketball game. Perspective much?

I believe he told David that Jesus would be ashamed that he wasn't playing to the limits of his God-given ability. Motivation is a lot different from trashing. Fact check much?

[Shank]

Avery is supposed to be taking a gig with ESPN, doing TV this Fall. That's the last I've heard. I think he's good with taking Cuban's money for free and doing a little TV work.

[T Park]

I believe he told David that Jesus would be ashamed that he wasn't playing to the limits of his God-given ability. Motivation is a lot different from trashing. Fact check much?

That little fact doesn't go with the AJ hater's mentality.

They just love to call him asshole and say "but but but but he coached the mavericks!!!!!!"

[Fabbs]

Pop was about to get fired and AJ went and re-designed the entire offense and was given full leadership rights and the went on to win the le.

Thus Controlovich vowed that never again would he turn the offense over to anyone.

Bring on Dumb and Dumber!

[SenorSpur]

All of the criticisms of AJ are almost word for word criticisms people had (or even have) of Pop. They both have abrasive coaching styles and demand an ungodly amount of effort and perfection from their players. The difference is Pop has full autonomy and this guy named Tim Duncan on his team.

I agree with you on the similar criticisms of Pop, pre-championships. I also completely agree with you about their similar coaching styles. Furthermore, we know that all coaches have egos. You have to in that profession. However for all those comparisons, I'm going to give you a big contrast.

Anyone who knows anything about Pop knows that, despite his success, he firmly believes in the motto "GET OVER YOURSELF". That goes for his players and himself. Can you ever imagine Pop refusing to take input from Duncan?

Pop is smart enough to know that he needed to forge a relationship with the team's best player. He was also smart enough to fortify that relationship over time, with the objective of achieving something great. It takes a different kind of coach to then get out of the way and allow the players to enjoy the accolades. He never put himself ahead of his team or his superstar. That, my friend, is coaching maturity. That is selflessness. All are traits that Avery either doesn't possess, hasn't learned or hasn't recognized that he needs to succeed as a coach.

Dirk was on local sports radio just this morning and claimed that he "wished he had a better relationship with Avery". It was his opinion that Avery "didn't allow such a relationship and kept himself at a distance from virtually everyone on the team and the coaching staff". We can all bash Dirk all we want, and when the season starts, I will. However, he's still the big dog on the Mavs team. If a coach doesn't have the support and buy-in from the best player, he's dead man walking -figuratively.

With all due respect to your defense about Avery, these are flaws that you seem to be ignoring in your assessment of his coaching tenure. You can dismiss my input all you want. I'm merely providing a local perspective to counter all this "over-to-top" sentiment for Avery as some coaching savant and to expose the fact that he has serious flaws.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...e.1ac545d.html

Dallas Mavericks' Nowitzki reflects on 'tough year'

12:58 AM CDT on Friday, September 26, 2008
By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]

The blunt question made Dirk Nowitzki uncomfortable. But it didn't necessarily catch him by surprise, like he knew it was coming sooner or later:

If Avery Johnson was still coaching the Dallas Mavericks, would Nowitzki still be on the team?

It was more than just a rumor last season that Nowitzki had grown tired of Johnson's system and coaching style. But was it really as bad as the whispers made it sound?

"I had a good time with Avery," Nowitzki said Thursday. "But sometimes I wish we had communicated a little more. We all know Avery ran a little dictatorship here. I think this league is still a league of players, not a coaches league."

To the players, that's what Johnson forgot. And that's what rubbed players the wrong way in the end.

Nowitzki touched on a variety of topics, including his contract situation and, of course, the coaching change.

Johnson's regimented style, along with his lack of offensive creativity, were two of the things that wore down Nowitzki and his teammates.

"You know me, I'm not always on the edge," Nowitzki said about whether he and Johnson could have lasted another season together. "I usually keep stuff on the inside.

"It was a tough year for me, I've got to admit. I had a lot of bad games in November and December. And after that, I got to playing better, and Jason [Kidd] really helped my game after the All-Star Game. But it was an up-and-down year, and up-and-down years are never fun. I had to play hurt for us to get to the playoffs, and that obviously is not what we play for."

And as for the Mavericks' offense that slowed to a crawl, particularly in the playoffs, Nowitzki said:

"Avery had a really strong will of what should go on out there, and he controlled the game a lot. I don't think there was enough movement going on. People were just sitting on our stuff, especially in the playoffs. We just couldn't score enough.

"I don't think we got enough easy stuff, either on the break or on cuts. Everything was post-ups or contested shots. It wasn't easy. I don't want to use this year to bash Avery. He took us to the Finals and did a phenomenal job. He came in and brought fire and enthusiasm."

[Bruno]

It takes some time before being an elite coach. It's a job where experience has a big role. AJ was a young coach, it isn't a surprise that he has made some mistakes with Dallas.

Now connect the dots :
- AJ was under contract until 2011 with Mavs for $4M per year.
- It seems that beign back in the NBa will make him lose these $4M per year.
- AJ reputation is quite low now with Cuban and Mavs players trashing him.
- Pop should retire in 2012.

[tav1]

It takes some time before being an elite coach. It's a job where experience has a big role. AJ was a young coach, it isn't a surprise that he has made some mistakes with Dallas.

Now connect the dots :
- AJ was under contract until 2011 with Mavs for $4M per year.
- It seems that beign back in the NBa will make him lose these $4M per year.
- AJ reputation is quite low now with Cuban and Mavs players trashing him.
- Pop should retire in 2012.

I'm not sure those big dots connect without us seeing some more small dots in between. But it's an interesting scenario.

Does AJ have an analyst contract in place with one of the networks?

[Spurs Brazil]

Avery Johnson, the former Spurs star and 2005-06 NBA Coach of the Year who was deposed as head coach of the Dallas Mavericks after the 2007-08 season ended, was on-hand at the team's practice facility, and Popovich hinted he will be around for a while longer.

I don't see any problem with AJ at camp.

I think he'll only help and I hope he stays longer

[roycrikside]

Bold is timvp...


False. AJ wasn't a part of the backlash that got Manu's number taken away. That was lead by the San Antonio media (Don Harris, in particular).<<

AJ could've ended it by just telling Harris to get a life. He didn't, so I'm guessing it mattered to him a little bit.


Since Pop has taken over the Spurs, one of main goals has been to eliminate the "soft" label this team had. Pop isn't as open with his demand for physical play but he definitely preaches physical play as much as AJ did with the Mavs. Pop just knows to do that in the lockerroom. AJ was working for the voyeur owner so nothing he did could ever stay behind closed doors.

Not being soft and being dirty are too different things. Spurs don't get flagrant fouls. They don't punch people in the balls or whack them across the head and face.

Two words: Mark Cuban. Compared to Cuban, AJ doesn't even appear on the radar. Again, Pop's autonomy is a big reason why he can control every last detail. AJ couldn't control any detail.

I hate Cubes as much as anyone, but I don't think he was the one telling Avery to flip out in press conferences and to get an at ude with the media. You're giving him way too much credit there. Don Nelson certainly didn't act that way. It's not like it's a contract clause working with Cuban that says coaches have to act as unprofessionally as he does.

You just got on AJ for blaming refs and pointing fingers and the very next paragraph you *gasp* blame refs and point fingers.

Classic.

Uh, news flash, I've never coached or played basketball for the San Antonio Spurs.


Yes because not being able to score has been solved by every quality coach including Gregg Popovich.

I think most people who objectively look at the two two rosters, the '06 Heat and the '06 Mavs would come to the conclusion that Dallas had the better team. AJ got outcoached and let the refs get into his head. He panicked and had the team switch hotels and all that silly stuff.

Are you talking about Warriors '07 or Warriors '91? The overrated Nelson beat a better Spurs team with a worse Warriors team with Larry Brown and Pop on the opposing sideline.

Uh, that '91 Spurs team had no bench and nobody who could shoot. How many three pointers did they hit in the four games, like five? Six maybe? That team had no chance to win anything.

What coach in the NBA would seamlessly be able to transform an isolation team to a Jason Kidd led team in the middle of a season? That's an absurdly high expectation.

Perhaps AJ could've made that point clear to Mr. Cuban before the trade was made then. Or perhaps he could've trusted Harris more, which would've prevented the trade from ever being made (not that I'm complaining).

Having the highest winning percentage in NBA history in the regular season and getting the limited talent that was the '06 Mavs two wins from the NBA championship are two impressive feathers in the ol' coaching hat. If you want to dismiss every current coach that hasn't won a championship with their current team, you are only going to have three left standing.

'06 was a fluke. He got by the Spurs thanks to some crappy officiating and some luck in Game 7. He was mere seconds away from being the mastermind of one of the all-time playoff flops if Dallas blew a 3-1 lead to the Tinyball Spurs. Then he got to face a Suns team sans Stoudemire. Usually a WCF is supposed to be kinda hard, no? Losing to Miami was unforgivable, any way you slice it. That Heat team was the worst NBA champ of the last 30 years. Would the Spurs have lost to that team in a million tries? no. We probably would've swept them. AJ showed exactly how good of a coach he was the next year losing to Nellie. A real coach would never allow a #1 seed to lose to a #8. Never, ever, ever. They didn't just lose, they got their asses kicked in three of the games.


Yeah they probably would. But then again, a large majority of Spurs fans are either bangwagoners or weren't even Spurs fans back prior to '99.

I'm fine if you are other Spurs fans want to hang AJ out to dry with Mark Cuban and the rest of the city of Dallas. I honestly couldn't care less. Such Spurs fans can go shoulder to shoulder with Cuban. I'll stay on the other side of the fence with Pop, Robinson, Elliott and AJ's retired jersey.


You live too much in the past. I've been a Spurs fan since '89, but I realize that the Spurs aren't about Robinson, Elliott and AJ anymore and haven't been for a long time. Three of the four les came with Tony and Manu as the big cogs. And at the end of the day it was Tim that was the reason for all four, including the first. You make it sound like Avery belongs on the Spurs Mt. Rushmore and he simply doesn't, not as a player, and certainly not by anything he's done since he retired. Also, please give him more credit and responsibility for his Dallas shortcomings. He's his own man and was never Cuban's lackey or puppet. He always spoke for himself and made his own bed with his decisions. By dismissing such things and sweeping the things about AJ that disappoint you as "Cuban's fault" you're insulting him a lot more than I ever could.

[tp2021]

It takes some time before being an elite coach. It's a job where experience has a big role. AJ was a young coach, it isn't a surprise that he has made some mistakes with Dallas.

Now connect the dots :
- AJ was under contract until 2011 with Mavs for $4M per year.
- It seems that beign back in the NBa will make him lose these $4M per year.
- AJ reputation is quite low now with Cuban and Mavs players trashing him.
- Pop should retire in 2012.

I'm assuming you are hinting at the possibility of Avery becoming the head coach. What about Mike Bud? If Pop retires, does Bud stay on the staff? I would assume Pop might want Bud to take over, and Bud would offer Avery an assistant position. I don't think either would want to be the assistant to the other, since Avery has already been a head coach, and Bud has been here longer on the coaching staff. I think I would rather have Mike be the head coach if/when Pop retires.

[ChuckD]

I don't think that because Pop likes AJ that they're somehow alike. , one of his best friends is Larry Brown, and he's as de able and two faced a person as you'll ever meet. I think Pop and AJ want the same kind of system, but the players take it from Pop because he has a pea sized ego. He never takes credit, and almost never calls out an individual player.

[Slippy]

An experienced head with the credentials of AJ at training camp can only be a good thing for the Spurs. I like how Pop added he has learnt from his coaching stint in Dallas. Welcome back to the spurs family AJ! A thoughtful move from POP and co.

[ulosturedge]

Seems like a lot of posters in this thread are post Avery/Drob/Sean E. era.

Yup. Apparently people hate to appreciate their roots. Can't wait 10 years from now when new Spurs Fans start praising their new spurs players and start saying stuff like " Manu and Tony were no where near as good as so and so(future stars)!"


See what these guys would have to say then lol. We will see one day.

[SequSpur]

You live too much in the past. I've been a Spurs fan since '89, but I realize that the Spurs aren't about Robinson, Elliott and AJ anymore and haven't been for a long time. Three of the four les came with Tony and Manu as the big cogs. And at the end of the day it was Tim that was the reason for all four, including the first. You make it sound like Avery belongs on the Spurs Mt. Rushmore and he simply doesn't, not as a player, and certainly not by anything he's done since he retired. Also, please give him more credit and responsibility for his Dallas shortcomings. He's his own man and was never Cuban's lackey or puppet. He always spoke for himself and made his own bed with his decisions. By dismissing such things and sweeping the things about AJ that disappoint you as "Cuban's fault" you're insulting him a lot more than I ever could.

Exactly... Avery.

[T Park]

Vince Carter > Ginobili.

Take what he says with a grain of salt.