I had heard about that, but was waiting to see if it would actually pass before commenting too much. We are, after all, talking about the same government that was alone with the nation of Somalia in refusing to sign the "Protection of Women and Children Act" in the UN.
Do you think Europeans knew they were bringing diseases the natives had no immunities for? No. Do you think the Europeans came over with the intention of eliminating the natives? No. Were the Europeans looking to expand their empire? Yes. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered to claim the land. They would have looked around and left. Let me think about civility for a moment.
Of course they didn't intentionally come over wanting to eliminate the native peoples with diseases. They just wanted to come over, take over some land, make their fortunes, and go back to Europe. It didn't happen that way, people settled, and needed more and more land, and the native population was in the way of that. That's when the true genocide begins. There were all kinds of rewards do ented for people who would bring back scalps of Natives to the government - and there's the Massacre at Wounded Knee and countless other examples of the efforts to eliminate the Native American population, or at least force them to assimilate into a society that never intended to treat them equally. They were taken advantage of from the start. I've read historical do ents from both the native and European side talking about using alcohol to force Native people into handing over their lands. What did not start out intentionally as genocide ended up that way.
Casinos are N.A. karma. They are quite legally exploiting the greed of the (primarily) white man for money. I can't believe that Red Lake doesn't have one. I've been to a couple of N.A. casinos in Minnesota. There is even one in downtown Duluth. How is that on a reservation, you might ask? The local tribe threatened to sue, since apparently much of the Duluth area used to be tribal land. One city block was designated native land, and a casino went up.Des, do you think you have any type of debt to Native Americans? Do you think you have benefited at thier expense at all?
From what I understand, the tribe doesn't even have to put up the money to build the casino. There is a whole industry around this, and the tribe still makes the lion's share of the profits. That would be one way for them to "pull themselves up".
It hasn't worked yet - for some tribes, but not many. So many tribes are geographically isolated, and there aren't too many people who will drive out to the boondocks of North Dakota to go gamble at a little Native American casino. It has helped some tribes though - I think it's the Micmac tribe that has roots in Massachusetts/ New York that has a very successful casino business up. I think that in a way, casinos are karmic justice, but they are not the natives' "savior" I don't think.
Fair enough, I jumped to conclusions and for that I apologoize.
Yes, but usually I ask in in a rhetorical sense. I believe there are many factors that have contributed to these situations including: governement actions and inactions, social situations, and general cultural differences.I'm saying that they can overcome that discrimination and are not, and I would like to know why. A question you've asked about minorities before yourself, I believe.
However, I must say the reason I give the largest influence to is the first.
Well, my herritage and ancestry is actually very little European, if any. I have more slave and indian ancestry than anything else, but it really doesn't matter because I'm not looking for individual accountability, but accountability and redemption on a society wide scale.As for debt and benefits... well, my family came here well after the Native Americans were shoved onto reservations for the government's own purposes, so debt? I doubt it. As for benefitting, hmm. Not sure. Probably as much as you, yourself have benefited.
I think it's pretty undisputable fact that most Americans have benefited from what happend to the Native Americans and continue to do so to this day. I would like to see the government take some serious steps to uplift those tribes through greater broad based programs designed to improve generations at a time, not individuals.
I'm not sure how to best intergrate these programs, or what kind of programs due to the cultural identiy Native Americans have, but it's something that should have been at the very least looked into a very long time ago.
You can self righteously preach about how they should be able to lift themselves up, but that means very little when it comes from a member of a society that has directly benefited from the destruction of the one they chastise.
http://www.ruralhome.org/pubs/hsgana...NativeCase.pdfConclusion
The Lakota people have a resilient culture with
vibrant civil ins utions, but the basic economic deprivation
of their environment continues to stifle economic
development efforts. The housing situation on the
Pine Ridge reservation remains problematic, with an
abundance of substandard, overcrowded homes and a
shortage of access to affordable credit. Several HUD and
USDA Rural Development housing programs are being
implemented, with positive results, through intermediary
nonprofit organizations. Access to these programs must
be expanded, however, to meet the reservation’s needs.
The increased presence of private sector lending
ins utions on the reservation in recent years is encouraging
and necessary. Unfortunately, it appears that there
has also been a related increase in the overall incidence
of predatory lending practices. Federal housing agencies,
the Oglala Lakota tribe, and the tribally chartered
nonprofits must guard against the possible financial
victimization of vulnerable tribal borrowers by some
for-profit lenders.
The poverty on the Pine Ridge reservation, and its
population’s subsequent high dependency on public
assistance, are emblematic of a dire absence of economic
opportunity. Despite the unforgiving economic
conditions that define their contemporary environment,
the Oglala Lakota are working to create solutions to
their own problems.
I would like to see the government take some serious steps to uplift those tribes through greater broad based programs designed to improve generations at a time, not individuals.
Once again, referring to sickdsm's post: Free College. I'm sure you will agree that the best way out of poverty is education. Why don't more take advantage of that? This is only a small part of the argument, of course, but still a part of it.
Ok, before I go any further, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm going to ask a question.
Do you think this society has done what it needs to do in order to pay a debt to the Native Americans?
Ok, the about your insight being discounted is bull . You don't have to be brown, red, blue or purple to have a valid opinion. I think taking a clear look at the situation and acknowledging disparties is enough.
As for your second point, I see where your coming from, but I disagree enourmously. I don't think acknowledging the cause of situations and taking appropriate steps to right wrongs is going to keep a people down.
I think, if left alone the people in these situations will pull themselves up as was indicated they should do earlier in this thread. But it's just going to take longer.
Honestly, I don't know. I don't think anyone will ever know what the really appropriate reparations, if any, would be. But I believe that they do have the tools now to at least begin to... I don't want to say better themselves, that's not the phrase I'm looking for... raise themselves up, I guess. But as far as debt repayment goes, I don't really know what to do. Maybe you have an idea, since you asked?
And actually, I think Guru is right! The majority blames the minority, the minority blames the majority, and nobody comes together to solve the problems, which would certainly make it easier on everybody.
i commented on this 3 days ago. in the last post under
"shiavo case, the best place for information" thread
I guess my point was that "acknowledging the cause" detracts from "taking steps."
Pardon the faux-Zen, but the people who make the biggest difference get the least attention, and those who get the most attention make the least difference.
I will go so far as to argue that addressing problems and fixing problems are mutually exclusive.
Oh, and no matter how hard you try, dealing the guilt card will get you very little in return. The most it will net you is another soul or two who will stand by your side and dole out more guilt.
I've said this before Manny, and I will tell you again. You appoach these situations from the top-down. Within the context of this subject, if you want to make a diference in the lives of American Indians, gather a sample of individual Indians, and find out what specific actions would improve their individual lot - and see if a pattern emerges.
Whether or not the Indians have been adequately compensated, why do they deserve so much more than a black person? How many cotton plantations or our founding fathers owned a slave? How much benefits are we paying to Africa or our Black population?
Wars happan. Countries expand. Have the Apache ever compensated the Sioux/Lakota/White trappers they killed's families? Probably not. I wouldn't expect them to. Did we ever provide compensation to France for screwing them over on the Lousianna purchase? Seward's Icebox? No.
As for the casino's, there a HUGE money making deal. Its really misleading bc of the sparesly populated areas, people will drive for hours to gamble. There really isn't much for the (mainly older people) to do otherwise. Some tribes CHOOSE not to based on ethics. I don't know about red lake. I know theres a decent sized one in Mahnomen, less than an hour away. Currently theres 3 good sized ones within 40 minutes of me. By good sized, one has an 18 hole golf course, hotel, convention center, concerts, all Vegas style gaming etc.... One's currently in plans to build a hotel and the other is 24 hours with blackjack/slots only. Theres many other opportunities though. Our local tribe has really got it together. Ice skating rinks, oil change places, rodeo grounds, etc.... Some tribes run banks. Theres really no limit. I BELIEVE its all tax free for them. I know south dakota is asking the tribe to raise there gas prices to make it fair for the independent stations. Tribal owned gas stations don't have to charge the 20-30 cent per gallon tax which means they usually undercut the compe ion. There's an endless limit of these sort of things. My faverite though is the tribes's ads for jobs in the paper. The bottom line always reads:
EOE/ Indian preference applied.
Me and my GF get into it once in a while about the unemployment/ghetto's in bigger cities. I say theres no excuse, the only plausible one is that its hard to WANT to get out bad enough. Her stepdad is a great example. He was a white guy living in a tough ghetto in southern chicago. He ended up moving to ND, free travel, food, housing to take a "job" with the college. He basically was a dietary study. He ate the food they provided for him and they in turn studied his health/body.
I'd say because the Native Americans had their land stolen from them after treaty after treaty was broken by the US Government. I know African Americans had their land stolen too but I also think that all minorities have suffered injustice at the hands of the US government.
minnesota blows
Oh trust me, I think there are a lot of people htat have been stepped on in the name of our free land, and I've adressed most of the situatinons, including blacks.
Every time I hear about reparations for slavery, I automatically think about 45 years and multi-billions of dollars of welfare. It's like a reflex or something.How much benefits are we paying to Africa or our Black population?
I am totally against any type of reparations to either native Americans or African Americans. I am of the opinion that everyone is equal, and should be treated that way.
Better late than never right Chris?
On this topic or reparations?
I heard on the radio today that the Tribal Chairman's son was arrested for helping plan the attack.
Yikes
http://wcco.com/crime/local_story_087163856.html
Louis Jourdain's father is Tribal Chairman Floyd Jourdain Jr., who has been the public face of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa since the shootings.
Last week, Jourdain Jr. urged tribal members to pay more attention to their children.
"The one underlying theme of it all (is that) we need to spend more time with one another and pay more attention to our young people, to what they are doing, what they are saying," Jourdain Jr. said March 24.
Jourdain Jr. appeared to have a loving relationship with his son. On the Chairman's personal Web site, there is an image of Jourdain Jr. with his son. The caption on the photo reads, "My pride and joy Louie who always shares his school achievements with me."
"You would think being a chairman he would be able to control his kids, let alone control the reservation," Red Lake resident Shane May said. "If he can't control the reservation, then he can't control his kids. Then why is he in control?"
Too bad that's not the way people felt back when the Native Americans were having their land taken away or blacks were in slavery.
It is a known fact that the US government broke every treaty with the Indians and STOLE their land. How you can be against any type of reparations, at least in theory, is beyond me.
Do you honestly believe that Native Americans and blacks were treated "equal"? Please tell me you don't think that.
Therein lies a problem. Do you want reparations? ... or do you want to get in touch with your inner-Oprah?
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