is manu the best international player of all time?

[DAF86]

I don't think anybody can take Manu over Dirk without being biased..Dirk is underrated career-wise, he's been a top 5 player of this entire generation with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and KG..he has an MVP, he's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career, he's led a team to the Finals..he's never really had elite support too..

TOP 5 player of his generation? I think you're overrating Dirk a bit.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not as familiar with FIBA, so I won't comment in detail, since I don't wanna pretend to know something that I don't..so I'm just speaking from an individual standpoint in the NBA, where Dirk has obviously proven a lot..

Who would you put ahead of Dirk for the 5th spot then?..Nash? Kidd? Iverson?..I understand some arguments, curious about who you would pick though..

[The_Game]

is he the best ever? i cant think of anyone better.



i know its an old video but im bored.

good lord...the overrating of Manu is getting out of contol.

[greensborohill]

I will say this, Dirk has just put up better numbers as his team's number one option, for a far longer time... for a perennial "contender," no less...

And Manu while enjoying the benefit of not having to play as the number one option for the Spurs at any point during the regular season (during his prime)... could always be counted on when it mattered the most - in the clutch... No one can argue that he wasn't the lightning plug that catapulted the Spurs to a championship in 2005. Duncan, while highly effective (as always) took a back seat during that run due the severely sprained ankle he was nursing at the time...

So one could argue that when Manu was in his prime he was an unstoppable force... and led his teams to championships... (see Argentina GOLD medal winning team in '04 and during his playoff run in '05). Manu took it hard to the rim and seemingly scored at will, or got to the line... his decision-making was impeccable. That playoff run was one for the ages as far as international players are concerned.

When Dirk was in his prime he... he accomplished... ummm... an MVP season?? A Finals embarrassment....??

You keep Dirk....

I'll take Manu.

[BlackBellamy]

Damn you people are ignorant, Yuta Tabuse is clearly the single Greatest International Player Of All Time! The Japanese Michael Jordan! Fer Chrissakes!

[DAF86]

I'm not as familiar with FIBA, so I won't comment in detail, since I don't wanna pretend to know something that I don't..so I'm just speaking from an individual standpoint in the NBA, where Dirk has obviously proven a lot..

Who would you put ahead of Dirk for the 5th spot then?..Nash? Kidd? Iverson?..I understand some arguments, curious about who you would pick though..

Dirk like Tony spent pretty much his whole career on the NBA so yes I'm comparing him to NBA players, and yes out of the top of my head all those guys are above Dirk on the "players of this generation" list. You said that Dirk 's been an all-NBA caliber player for the majority of his career and that he's led a team to the Finals. But the same can be said about Iverson and Kidd (he lead his team to the finals twice) and Nash hasn't got there but he got pretty close and he was elected two times MVP.

[benefactor]

Anyone that thinks that Manu > Dirk isn't at least arguable hasn't seen even half of Manu's career.

I'm talking NBA. If you take away Manu and replace him with Dirk starting in 02-03 we probably would have won 6 or 7 les by now.

[greensborohill]

I would rather have Dirk for a season but for a game 7 of playoffs or one game of single elimination in FIBA I take Manu every time over Dirk.

Game 7 BTW

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260522024

[sonic21]

Sabonis > Dirk > Manu

[anonoftheinternets]

international career = manu
NBA career = dirk .. /thread ...
OP should be clear as to best international player in NBA or in International games.

[DAF86]

I'm talking NBA. If you take away Manu and replace him with Dirk starting in 02-03 we probably would have won 6 or 7 les by now.

I'm just talking about them as basketball players, I already said that Manu doesn't have the individual accolades or stats to be considered the best international player on the NBA, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he got to the league at age 24 instead of 20-21 like most guys nowadays. Many of Manu's best years were wasted with him trying to adjust to the NBA.

And I don't know about that last part, I don't think that would have been the case.

[DAF86]

[greensborohill]

Must be nice for him being the 2nd Banana. . . . wish Dirk had someone as good as he is to be his Second Banana.

Point still stands.

The arguement that Dirk doesn't show up in the clutch is bullsh!t.

37, 15, 3 assists, and the game tying ballz to the wall and 1.


Dirk > Manu

[dirk4mvp]

I wonder if manu fans realize if Manu for Dirk was on the table, and Cuban was kinda tipsy and agreed to it, Manu wouldn't have time to pick his gigantic ing nose before he had to be on a plane to Dallas.

[weebo]

You are stupid.

Is that your retort? Make a case why Euro ball was on par with the US pre Dream Team instead of hurling insults like an imbecile. Fact remains, that Sabonis, not unlike all the euro scrubs of the time, were no where near NBA caliber and in fact overrated.

[sonic21]

Argentina - Manu, Scola, Nocioni...
Germany - Dirk, scrub, super scrub...

Dirk managed to win some medals (Euro, WC) with his weak NT usually being the mvp of the tournament. He's always double or triple teamed, i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

[benefactor]

I'm just talking about them as basketball players, I already said that Manu doesn't have the individual accolades or stats to be considered the best international player on the NBA, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he got to the league at age 24 instead of 20-21 like most guys nowadays. Many of Manu's best years were wasted with him trying to adjust to the NBA.

And I don't know about that last part, I don't think that would have been the case.

Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a le away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six les.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

[DAF86]

Argentina - Manu, Scola, Nocioni...
Germany - Dirk, scrub, super scrub...

Dirk managed to win some medals (Euro, WC) with his weak NT usually being the mvp of the tournament. He's always double or triple teamed, i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

I wouldn't call Shawn Bradley, Chris Kaman, Patrick Femerling and Ademola Okulaja scrubs.

And Manu on international tournaments has been double or triple teamed the same or more than Dirk so stop making things up.

[urunobili]

i don't think Manu would be as effective if he had the same treatment.

You're starting to sound like vander...

[greensborohill]

Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a le away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six les.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

Respect!

[DAF86]

Of course you don't think that would have been the case...you are a homer.

You said, "I would take prime Manu over prime Dirk." Allow me to give you a bit more meat on the subject as to help you understand why you are wrong.

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a le away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six les.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

You never know maybe the Spurs wouldn't have defeated the Lakers in 2003 with Dirk instead of Manu and without that tle you may not have 2005 and 2007 and in 2005 the Spurs definitely don't win it all with Dirk instead of Manu. You're talking about things that can't be proved so don't come here like you are stating a fact, 'cause you aren't, you are just stating your opinion.

[sonic21]

ok DAF, you're clearly a homer.

And urunobili, are you saying that because i'm french?

i will also defend dirk if someone is saying Tony > Dirk.
In fact right now i still think Manu (if healthy) > Tony.

[DAF86]

So unless you'd like to come up with some other sort of homerific argument that refutes any of this I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. You take Dirk in his prime every single time.

That a team consisting of Duncan, Iverson, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Jason Kidd, etc would beat a team consisting of Manu, Scola, Oberto and Nocioni is pretty much a no-brainer too right?

[weebo]

If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a le away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six les.

Is a person here not allowed to stick to their guns without being called a homer? Sure, Dirk has been great but isn't the measure of greatness based on team accomplishments? Manu's body or work over the years both in the NBA and international play is greater than Dirk's...and this much is fact. On the other hand, you base your argument on the hypothetical and you can't substantiate your claims with any true evidence.

[ploto]

I really do not see how you can claim Manu as the best international player ever to play in the NBA when several others have received the NBA MVP Award?