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Whottt wont show proof, cause the proof he talks about is coming out of his ass.
There is no such thing to prove that.
Its all opinion.
Barry is the designated bricker for the Spurs. He takes all the bad shots or chokes on the open looks so all the other Spurs don't have to. If it weren't for Brent, other Spurs would be missing his shots or looking timid in his playing time.
Whottt wont show proof, cause the proof he talks about is coming out of his ass.
There is no such thing to prove that.
Its all opinion.
So was this a lie?
You said you'd show us after the game. Still waiting...
Woah, you'd rather him shoot 3 of 16 than 4 of 4?
If his shot is not there, then STOP SHOOTING. Pass the ball to somebody who can make it.
Yeah, if he was Tim Duncan or Manu or Tony, I'd be clamoring for him to take more shots. But he's not. And as long as there's a Beno or Robert in the game, there are better options.
As soon as Devin is better, Barry is gone from the starting line-up UNLESS his shot becomes more consistent.
But the last thing we need is for Barry to be putting up 15-16 shots a night!
Barry needs to score about 6-10 a night to be useful. Just enough to be a threat so that someone has to guard him. Leave the bucketful of shots to other scorers on the team.
In theory Brent SHOULD be a difference maker for this team overall. His shooting should make the team stronger. But right now his shooting hasn't made a big difference. He is underacheiving thus far.
He can do better, and I hope he does.
But as long as Pop plays Bowen and Ginobili in crunch time, the same shooting problems can resurface. In order for Barry to make his mark he needs to make shots consistently over the course of the game. Then he will get a chance to maybe play the clutch time minutes of a big game or two.
He simply needs to make his open shots at a respectable rate to be a difference maker the Spurs brought him in to be.
5 games in the playoffs is really not a big enough sample to know whether Barry isn't living up to expectations yet or not. We won't really know if Barry sucks in the playoffs until at least 10 games or so. So far imo, he has been too passive but I can't really say he's hurt the team.
BTW, Steve Kerr sucked far worse with us his first year and he wouldn't even have sniffed the playoffs if Tim didn't demand it from Pop. What does that say about how hard it is to get a handle on the system for some players?
Looking at the 2005 playoff stats (only 6 games), Brent is shooting:
43% FG (about same as Tony 44%), about avg for the backcourt Spurs.
36% 3G (4th behind Manu, Robert, Bruce, but much better than Tony)
I just don't see where Brent is having such a horrible playoffs that deserve to be pissed on, justifying his own piss-on-Brent thread.
Brent shooting 15-16 shots/game would have BETTER results than Tony, due to Brent much better 3G %age. And of course Brent 90% FT is 50% better than Tony's 60%.
For what Brent does, he does with perfecctly acceptable results. The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.
Last edited by boutons; 05-06-2005 at 05:08 PM.
I agree with you boutons. And I'd like to add that when some people here say they see Barry "just passing the ball around the perimeter" is when they should realize he's doing the point guards job, instead of being selfish and taking a lot of shots.
I agree with this to an extent - just compare Beno and Brent. In the playoffs, Beno has taken a shot every 2.5 minutes he's out on the floor. Brent does it once every six minutes -- way down from his figure of a shot every 3.8 minutes in the regular season. Other than that, he's playing about average for him in the playoffs. I know I expected too much of him this season and I wasn't looking for a real breakout here.The only serious complaint is that he isn't doing enough of it.
Last edited by ChumpDumper; 05-06-2005 at 05:33 PM.
Uh TimVP...I was slammed today and didn't have time to play childish games with you...I'll post it...but I really don't understand why you don't just take my word for it...
For now on the subject of Barry making a team choke proof in the 4th, choke proof is not a term that should be thrown around lightly...but I'd say Barry has been the best example and closest thing to that all season. As for the playoffs...it's simple...look at the game where he didn't play in the 4th, VS all the others he did...his unselfish passing is contagious and it has been since the first game he played with us...
I'll post more later...you are wrong about the +/- figures though...we aren't in the negative with him.
Last edited by whottt; 05-06-2005 at 10:03 PM.
Still waiting for you to post what you were going to post from yesterday. Not holding my breath.
Look at his stats in the fourth quarters of playoff games so far. No points and three assists. I want to see the numbers you have that show how his value is more than his numbers show.For now on the subject of Barry making a team choke proof in the 4th, choke proof is not a term that should be thrown around lightly...but I'd say Barry has been the best example and closest thing to that all season. As for the playoffs...it's simple...look at the game where he didn't play in the 4th, VS all the others he did...his unselfish passing is contagious and it has been since the first game he played with us...
The Spurs are +9.7 with him on the court and +10.8 with him off, for a net difference of -1.1 points.I'll post more later...you are wrong about the +/- figures though...we aren't in the negative with him.
Apology accepted.
Again, 5 games is not enough to be statistically significant yet.
Horry was probably off the charts statistically against Memphis last year and then he cratered big time against the Lakers. If you're going to get into a pissing contest, at least have a little patience.
Been waiting all year Twohand.
System or not.
Open jump shots are open jump shots, and being passive on the perimiter is being passive.
I think Whott produced some convincing evidence that brent has had a somewhat decent regular season.
The question is whether he has done enough in the playoffs. Sample size is very small, but every time I see the guy play he seems to work his ass off. I'll take the effort and the threat of 3 point shooting. I still don't see that guy getting many open looks which means our bigs get more space to operate.
I'll go out on a limb and say barry is going to be very valuable and make some very big shots/plays.
I'm happy with Barry at this point. He doesn't need to do as much as Hedo did, because Manu and Tony on playing out of their minds right now.
I do believe the biggest game of the postseason for the spurs has been game 2 (must win) and barry started that game off right. The thrashing put the spurs back to where they needed to be and Barry had a lot to do with that.
Interestingly enough, that's the game where he put up shots at the highest rate of the playoffs, twice as often as in game one. Helpful.I do believe the biggest game of the postseason for the spurs has been game 2 (must win) and barry started that game off right. The thrashing put the spurs back to where they needed to be and Barry had a lot to do with that.
Agreed. I'm just waiting for Whottt's proof that this is true:
He said there was a +/- breakdown that showed that when Barry went to the bench in the second half, the Spurs folded. If that is true, it'd be a sign that Barry is valuable beyond his stats.
If.
exactlyr right Chump.
If he would chuck up more shots, I would be all for it.
I don't know any sites that list touches, so I'm not going to post any numbers that defend Brent Barry's play this season. Instead, I'll post his stat line from last season with the Sonics, the last time he was an active part of the offense and was able to play in the flow of the game.
Games Minutes FG% FT% 3PT% Rebounds Assists Steals Blocks PPG
__59___30.6__50.4_82.7_45.2____3.5_____5.8___1.4___0.3__10.8
And one more; Adjusted Field Goal Percentage: 63.7
Last edited by Gerryatrics; 05-07-2005 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Stupid non statline friendly posting thing
Yeah, that's why all of us expected more production out of Barry. He had so much success around the league and was such a great set-shot three point shooter, that everyone thought he'd hit 50% of his threes.
That is part of the mystery.
That, and the Spurs originally were gonna make him the back up, and they didnt expect what Udrih has given.
IMO, this series, with Antonio Daniels his size and quickness, Barry should get the majority of the back up 1 minutes.
Like I said, touches. In Seattle, Brent Barry brought the ball up the floor, and handled the ball pretty much every possesion, often multiple times per possesion. Even when the Sonics still had Gary Payton at the point Brent still handled the ball a lot. With the Spurs, Brent can go multiple possesions without ever touching the ball at all, much less in a position to make a play. In addition, a lot of the shots he does get are with under five seconds on the shot clock if I remember correctly, suggesting he only gets the ball as a last resort, and that he has to force up a lot of his shots.
The Spurs play an inside-out game with Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili-Tim Duncan over perimeter passing, ball movement and slashing into the paint and kicking out to the open shooter when the defense collapses. All of which would get Brent Barry touches and open up the offense. But of course we can't change the offense to suit one player. Barry ran a motion-offense in Seattle, and now has to try to fit into an offense that doesn't try to work in anyone not named Parker, Ginobili or Duncan. I think it's telling that some of Brent's best games have been when one of the big three were out. I'm not saying bench one of them, I'm just saying move the ball and try to get Barry some touches when he's out there.
Brent touched the ball more than twice in his 20 minutes in game one. It doesn't do any good to give him touches if he doesn't shoot. No one can tell me starting him is a ploy to keep him from being involved in the offense. Nothing is horribly wrong here, but you can't tell me Barry shoots once every 6 minutes becuase the Spurs run an "offense that doesn't try to work in anyone not named Parker, Ginobili or Duncan" -- all you have to do is look at the rates at which Beno and GRob are shooting.
Exactly right.
So far in the playoffs, Barry is averaging 8 shots per 48 minutes. Beno is averaging 19.2 shots per 48 minutes, while GRob is averaging 17.9 shots. Beno and GRob are getting their touches ... and so is Barry. It's a matter of getting in the right position and having the right mindset to do something with the ball.
When Beno is in he runs the point and will attack the basket and try to lay it up or hit a runner, he also gets screens so he can take open threes. Robinson just plain shoots the ball every time he gets his hands on it. Half of Barry's touches come from the other guard out on the perimeter after they use up their dribble, who then call for the ball back so they can set up a play. Brent has never taken a lot of shots, even when he was the number two option with the Sonics. He takes shots in the flow of the offense, not every chance he gets no matter how well covered he is or how much time is left on the shot clock or who might be open. I wish he would take more shots too, but he just doesn't get the touches or the looks to take 20-30 shots a game, especially here in the playoffs. You guys seem convinced that he just stands in the corners watching the game because he wants to, not because he's been directed to do so, but I'm not.
You have shots per 48, anyone have touches per 48 or touches per possesion to compare? If that's equal then I'll finally admit Barry sucks and stop defending him.
If he was shooting at this rate all season, I wouldn't have brought it up.
He wasn't -- he's shooting over a third less often now. It's more than apparent that his move to the starting lineup was due in no small part to the two shots in 20 minutes.
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