Who's better? Lamar Odom or Toni Kukoc?

[Venti Quattro]

Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA)

Bright future? He screams NBA scrub and it has been that way since day 1.

[hater]

why can't you just accept you made father poor comparison?

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

[Venti Quattro]

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

, I would love to put in a troll response to your question, but it's clear that this is specifically addressed to JamStone.

[Phillip]

goddamn hater is ing re ed.

the comparison presented by the OP is between two players at their best. not one as a rookie and one who is at the end of his career.

[Phillip]

, I would love to put in a troll response to your question, but it's clear that this is specifically addressed to JamStone.

put one in anyway. hater is starting to borderline lefty stupidity in this thread.

[hater]

I raise the bar

[lefty]

Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Dejan Bodiroga, Dimitri Diamantidis, Peja Stojakovic, and now Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA), to name a few. You can handpick the Kobes and LeBrons and Durants. But you also leave out Kwame Brown, Donnell Harvey, Dajuan Wagner, Louis Williams, Lavell Blancard, Kelvin Torbert, Randy Livingston, all either Naismith players of the year or Gatorade players of the year in their respective senior high school classes, with the exception of Kwame who was obviously a #1 overall pick in the NBA.

It's easy to pick out LeBron and Kobe. Just like I can pick out Dirk and Pau. The caliber of Euroleague has improved since Kukoc was there. But what Kukoc accomplished as a young Euroleague player is still without a doubt impressive. If you're going to use scouting reports of Lamar Odom out of high school and one year at Rhode Island, I think it's fair to look at what Toni did in Euroleague.

For me, Odom is the better athlete, he has had better production in the NBA, and he probably has a higher ceiling than what a 25 year old Toni Kukoc had. But Odom has never reached his full potential and that's mostly on him. As an NBA player, I don't think Toni reached his full potential either, but I think it was more of a product of his situation, the NBA team he landed on, the offense it ran, and particularly two of the teammates he played with in Jordan and Pippen. When Jordan and Pippen left, Toni was already 30 years old. He put up 19/7/5 that season. Then he became a journeyman. I still would have liked to see him have more of a chance to be "the guy" on a team a few years earlier. There was no Jordan his rookie year, but it was still his rookie year in the NBA. Then he had to take a backseat to Jordan and Pippen the next 4 seasons.

As for who is better offensively. It's arguable. Kukoc was the better shooter and at least for me the better passer/playmaker. Odom has different advantages on offense based on his skills. Better at driving to the basket and finishing, a much better offensive rebounder, better one-on-one player in isolation. If you look at each of their true shooting %, they're very comparable with a slight edge to Odom. Kukoc was more of a jumpshooter obviously. But it's more of a toss-up depending on what you look at as to who was better offensively. Even during that Bulls second threepeat, Kukoc's assist percentage was somewhere around 23-24% being a third banana on that team. Odom is also a third playmaker to Kobe and Pau, but I think he gets more touches than Toni got. And since the Lakers acquired Pau, Odom has an assist percentage of around 13-15%. I do think Toni was the better passer and maximized his touches when it came to creating for teammates.

[Phillip]

I lower the bar.

[JamStone]

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

Blake Griffin is better because Duncan has gotten older and isn't as good as he used to be.

So now you admit you mad ea really poor comparison?

[JamStone]

Here we go. I'll take a good three year sample size of both Toni Kukoc's career and Lamar Odom's career in their respective primes. Kukoc from 1995-1996 to 1997-98 during the Bulls second threepeat and the last three seasons, including this one, for Odom on the Lakers. I included this season and not 2007-08 because it wasn't a full year of Pau Gasol and quite frankly it helps Odom out because he's having arguably his best season as a Laker and a better year than 2007-08.

Both role players on multiple championship teams. Toni was a couple years younger than Odom during this stretch. Here's a stats comparison, regular season, not playoffs. I added the two most used and cited advance stats as well.

Toni Kukoc
212 games
28.1 MPG
13.2 PPG
4.3 RPG
4.0 APG
47.2% FG
37.0% 3PT
TS%: .557
PER: 19.3

Lamar Odom
222 games
31.2 MPG
12.0 PPG
9.0 RPG
2.9 APG
49.8% FG
33.9% 3PT
TS%: .556
PER: 17.3

[Killakobe81]

I think Dirk was an exception as well. He was clearly better than any US high schooler the year he came out. He dominated the Hoops Summit game, but the US class wasn't that great anyway. I believe it was the class of Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis.

I thought about including Dirk but wasnt sure how well he played at that age TBH ...I remeber reading the hoop summitt that he was pretty good. But did not remember either who was the top HS player ... but eventhen when you talk about potential talent who knew Dirk would be THAT good? he was traded for Tractor Traylor for chist sakes ...so I bet some folks thought his ceiling wa snot THAT high ...

[hater]

Blake Griffin is better because Duncan has gotten older and isn't as good as he used to be.

So now you admit you mad ea really poor comparison?

so you are saying Blake is a better passer, low post player, playmaker, ball handler, defender and shooter than Duncan at this point?

[JamStone]

I answered your question and why. So just accept and admit that you made a really poor comparison. You said you would after I answered your question and why.

[hater]

I answered your question and why. So just accept and admit that you made a really poor comparison. You said you would after I answered your question and why.

not quite. I am still trying to figure out in what aspects is Blake better than Duncan in your mind?

[namlook]

Also how is Kukoc a better passer. Odom often-times runs the point for LA and he averages more assists per game...

Kucok was the better passer. If you saw them both play you would not question this.

And if you look at the production Kukoc averaged more assists per minute played than Odom.

[JamStone]

You asked who was a better player this season. I told you Blake. I told you why, because Duncan is older and is not the same player he used to be.

A player doesn't have to be better at every aspect of basketball in order to be better than another player. Blake is a more dominant and more productive player at this stage in his career than Duncan is at this stage in his career. Blake is a more prolific scorer and impacts the game more on offense. Quite frankly, I don't think Blake is much of a defender yet and I haven't watched enough of his games to make an educated evaluation. But Blake has more impact on offense than Duncan has. He scores much more, I think he's a more productive passer, but that's partly due to opportunity. Duncan has always been a good passer for a big man but now he doesn't get as many touches and the Spurs are more uptempo more.

Blake is better because of impact and production. It's not that he's more skilled. And quite frankly, it's not because he's bigger, faster, stronger than Duncan. It's that he plays a lot more minutes, gets a lot more touches, and he does well with those minutes and opportunities. Like I said, it's because Duncan is older and not what he used to be. It's not about breaking down every aspect of basketball that either is better than the other.

[lefty]

5 pages

[hater]

Blake's advantage over Duncan has nothing to do with the fact that Blake is stronger, bigger and faster??

Blake is a better passer than Duncan????

Blake is better because he gets more minutes? So if both players play the same minutes your opinion would change?

That was a weak mumbo jumbo right there.

[Phillip]

ater, with the bads

[mardigan]

You asked who was a better player this season. I told you Blake. I told you why, because Duncan is older and is not the same player he used to be.

A player doesn't have to be better at every aspect of basketball in order to be better than another player. Blake is a more dominant and more productive player at this stage in his career than Duncan is at this stage in his career. Blake is a more prolific scorer and impacts the game more on offense. Quite frankly, I don't think Blake is much of a defender yet and I haven't watched enough of his games to make an educated evaluation. But Blake has more impact on offense than Duncan has. He scores much more, I think he's a more productive passer, but that's partly due to opportunity. Duncan has always been a good passer for a big man but now he doesn't get as many touches and the Spurs are more uptempo more.

Blake is better because of impact and production. It's not that he's more skilled. And quite frankly, it's not because he's bigger, faster, stronger than Duncan. It's that he plays a lot more minutes, gets a lot more touches, and he does well with those minutes and opportunities. Like I said, it's because Duncan is older and not what he used to be. It's not about breaking down every aspect of basketball that either is better than the other.

Just let it go Jam, he's not going to get it haha.
Question, which of these players would you rather have take a big shot?

[Killakobe81]

Just let it go Jam, he's not going to get it haha.
Question, which of these players would you rather have take a big shot?

If you mean original two (odom/Kukoc) I would say Toni but Odom has been more clutch the past few seasons than he has ever been in his career ...

As for Duncan vs. Blake that is not even a question that warrants answering ...Blake's next "big" shot will be his first ...

[IronMexican]

I'm going Kukoc. The fact that Kobe won with a player like Odom only further solidifies his position as the GOAT.

[cheguevara]

I really can't say who was more consistent. Kukoc was more like a supporting cast, always the bridesmain never the groom in the NBA. Odom had his chances to be a leading player and failed.

I'd say at their best, Odom is more lethal because of the versatility and athleticism. But Kukoc really never had a chance to blossom in the NBA. Too little too late.

[JamStone]

Odom has put up better post seasons than Kukoc did. Kukoc had some pretty poor playoffs in that Bulls threepeat. But some of Lamar's playoff stats are "fake" good. Look at the 2008 NBA Finals for example where Odom actually put up good stats, but most people acknowledge he played like a pussy against the Celtics while putting up pretty good numbers. And let's not forget that as recent as the previous season or two, people often called Lamar "Odumb,"Laker fans included. I think this season has been somewhat of a renaissance for Odom. He's played great. He's seemingly improved in every part of his game, became a better three point shooter and much more efficient.

As for who would I take for a big shot, I think it depends. Kukoc is the better jumpshooter, three point shooter, free throw shooter. If I needed someone to make a three pointer or clutch free throws, I think the answer is easily Kukoc. But down one or two points, I'd rather put the ball in Lamar's hands because he has better one-on-one ability and get to the basket better and finish. The problem would be if he gets fouled at the rim and he has to make free throws to tie or win.

[lefty]

Odom has put up better post seasons than Kukoc did. Kukoc had some pretty poor playoffs in that Bulls threepeat. But some of Lamar's playoff stats are "fake" good. Look at the 2008 NBA Finals for example where Odom actually put up good stats, but most people acknowledge he played like a pussy against the Celtics while putting up pretty good numbers. And let's not forget that as recent as the previous season or two, people often called Lamar "Odumb,"Laker fans included. I think this season has been somewhat of a renaissance for Odom. He's played great. He's seemingly improved in every part of his game, became a better three point shooter and much more efficient.

As for who would I take for a big shot, I think it depends. Kukoc is the better jumpshooter, three point shooter, free throw shooter. If I needed someone to make a three pointer or clutch free throws, I think the answer is easily Kukoc. But down one or two points, I'd rather put the ball in Lamar's hands because he has better one-on-one ability and get to the basket better and finish. The problem would be if he gets fouled at the rim and he has to make free throws to tie or win.

Kukoc made some big game winning shots down with his team down by 1-2 point several times, including the famous one vs the Knicks in the 94 playoffs

I also remember that regular season game (1996-1997) vs the Lakers; the Bulls where getting blown out, and Kukoc sparked a comeback win.
He was a big time shooter