If you were the GM what would you do for next year ?

[cantthinkofanything]

I guess we both have eyes for Landry and a beefy big.

I bet you do...

[FailureNotAnOption]

Proof that rap music does effect the brain

Fixed.

[baseline bum]

Now, taking that into consideration, I don't make major changes to the core. As a Pistons fan, I know what it's like kicking and screaming for change to the core of a team that is successful but seemingly can't get over the top anymore.

I don't see the comparison to Detroit. The Pistons were stupid in salary-dumping Billups. Unless you're one of the glamor teams (LA, Miami, New York), signing free agents is like getting sloppy seconds. They really should have done like Denver did in moving him for Ray Felton. You just don't see too many good young players hit free agency and leave to one of the smaller market teams unless his old team has soured on him or other team drastically overpays. Detroit should have also dumped Hamilton when they could.

Maybe I'm overrating Manu's trade value, but perhaps you could make a play for OJ Mayo since the Grizzlies have soured on him. Or you relieve Denver of their logjam at point and replace JR Smith by trading Manu for Felton. I still think Ginobili could have some value to both of these up and coming teams, as the West will probably be really wide open again next season; evern moreso than this year with Phil Jackson retiring.

Parker could probably also deliver a pretty nice package of young players and/or picks.

[JamStone]

I wasn't making an exact parallel with the Pistons. The point was as a fan being zealous about making major changes to a team that is still very successful. I think when they've tasted championship success, some fans think falling short of anything but a championship means drastic changes need to be made. But the alternative to a perennial 50+ win team that more often than not makes a pretty deep run in the playoffs might not be what fans think it could be.

Rebuilding often takes quite a few years. If you're prepared for that, I guess that's fine. It's hard to just "re-tool" unless as you suggested you're a team like the Lakers. So with the Duncan-Ginobili-Parker core, it's just my opinion that you ride it out until it's really and completely done. A 60 win season with a disappointing first round upset (if it happens) doesn't tell me that it's really and completely done that requires the team to be blown up.

As for Ginobili, he probably has some value. I just don't trade him. Durability issues or not, regardless of age, I think Ginobili is the heart and soul of the team. Duncan might be the backbone/foundation, but Ginobili is almost nearly irreplaceable in terms of the iden y of the team. He's the emotional leader, the closer, and when he's right, the best player on the team. With Duncan on his decline, I don't think there are trades and moves to be made that can give the Spurs a legitimate shot to contend again IF Ginobili is one of the pieces that is moved. Just my opinion.

[baseline bum]

I wasn't making an exact parallel with the Pistons. The point was as a fan being zealous about making major changes to a team that is still very successful. I think when they've tasted championship success, some fans think falling short of anything but a championship means drastic changes need to be made. But the alternative to a perennial 50+ win team that more often than not makes a pretty deep run in the playoffs might not be what fans think it could be.

Rebuilding often takes quite a few years. If you're prepared for that, I guess that's fine. It's hard to just "re-tool" unless as you suggested you're a team like the Lakers. So with the Duncan-Ginobili-Parker core, it's just my opinion that you ride it out until it's really and completely done. A 60 win season with a disappointing first round upset (if it happens) doesn't tell me that it's really and completely done that requires the team to be blown up.

As for Ginobili, he probably has some value. I just don't trade him. Durability issues or not, regardless of age, I think Ginobili is the heart and soul of the team. Duncan might be the backbone/foundation, but Ginobili is almost nearly irreplaceable in terms of the iden y of the team. He's the emotional leader, the closer, and when he's right, the best player on the team. With Duncan on his decline, I don't think there are trades and moves to be made that can give the Spurs a legitimate shot to contend again IF Ginobili is one of the pieces that is moved. Just my opinion.

On trading Manu, I meant only in blowing up the team. I would never move him in anything other than a full rebuild for the reasons you stated. This team really struggled to win 50 games last season and those 61 wins came heavily from being red hot in the first two months of the season (28-4) when most teams are lazy and trying to figure out how to play together. I don't really consider this Spurs team to be a typical 1-seed, so the 61 wins don't look as impressive on closer inspection. Not blowing it up when they could get a few decent pieces now would be lunacy to me. I see no reason to keep kicking the can down the road when we're looking at probably a 48-54 win team next season. In addition, drafts like what 2012 looks to be don't come around but every 4-5 years. Passing on the chance to have a decent pick next year could make things much more painful in the long run. If we were looking at the 2011 or 2013 draft next summer then I wouldn't be so eager to blow things up, but there are some really nice forwards in that draft who could be good long-term options.

[JamStone]

If that's how you feel, that's fine. Then you're ready for this group to be done. But if I were a Spurs fan, that's not how I would feel. Complete rebuild to me means you're ready for the whole rebuilding process, including at least several years of at best mediocrity and at worst several years of being a basement dwelling lottery team. And in either scenario, there is no guarantee that the Spurs with a new core will even be a 48-54 win team that you expect next season to be. That's why I ride it out until it is completely obvious that this core group and their run is absolutely over.

[baseline bum]

If that's how you feel, that's fine. Then you're ready for this group to be done. But if I were a Spurs fan, that's not how I would feel. Complete rebuild to me means you're ready for the whole rebuilding process, including at least several years of at best mediocrity and at worst several years of being a basement dwelling lottery team. And in either scenario, there is no guarantee that the Spurs with a new core will even be a 48-54 win team that you expect next season to be. That's why I ride it out until it is completely obvious that this core group and their run is absolutely over.

Being a 20-40 win team for the next 2-4 years is exactly what I want. The late 80s rebuild gave the team David Robinson and a great decade of contention in the 90s. Moving Ice to make room for Robertson gave them a great young trading piece to send to Milwaukee for mings in 89. Being lousy in the late 80s brought them Sean Elliott too.

No guarantees the Spurs can come back to a 50 win team in 4-5 years, but the team is fortunate in that they have a GM who drafts really well. There is one guarantee though: Duncan and Ginobili don't have much time left at a high level, and the Spurs are looking at being a 30-win team when they hang it up anyways. Might as well jump-start the process when they can get some pieces that could stick around into the future and maybe even strike gold again in a stacked 2012 draft.

[4>0rings]

If that's how you feel, that's fine. Then you're ready for this group to be done. But if I were a Spurs fan, that's not how I would feel. Complete rebuild to me means you're ready for the whole rebuilding process, including at least several years of at best mediocrity and at worst several years of being a basement dwelling lottery team. And in either scenario, there is no guarantee that the Spurs with a new core will even be a 48-54 win team that you expect next season to be. That's why I ride it out until it is completely obvious that this core group and their run is absolutely over.

This team can still compete in the finals with a decent 7' stiff getting playing time at the same time Duncan is in the game. That's my belief. This team did well enough to get the first seed, now they need to solidify their front court with another twin tower duo and not jump shooting.

[SenorSpur]

I wasn't making an exact parallel with the Pistons. The point was as a fan being zealous about making major changes to a team that is still very successful. I think when they've tasted championship success, some fans think falling short of anything but a championship means drastic changes need to be made. But the alternative to a perennial 50+ win team that more often than not makes a pretty deep run in the playoffs might not be what fans think it could be.

Rebuilding often takes quite a few years. If you're prepared for that, I guess that's fine. It's hard to just "re-tool" unless as you suggested you're a team like the Lakers. So with the Duncan-Ginobili-Parker core, it's just my opinion that you ride it out until it's really and completely done. A 60 win season with a disappointing first round upset (if it happens) doesn't tell me that it's really and completely done that requires the team to be blown up.

As for Ginobili, he probably has some value. I just don't trade him. Durability issues or not, regardless of age, I think Ginobili is the heart and soul of the team. Duncan might be the backbone/foundation, but Ginobili is almost nearly irreplaceable in terms of the iden y of the team. He's the emotional leader, the closer, and when he's right, the best player on the team. With Duncan on his decline, I don't think there are trades and moves to be made that can give the Spurs a legitimate shot to contend again IF Ginobili is one of the pieces that is moved. Just my opinion.

Jamstone, I respect your opinion highly. I agree with a portion of what you've stated. Personally, I don't see where there are trades and moves to be made that can give the Spurs a legitimate shot to contend again even IF Ginobili stays. The past two playoff series have made it clear that there is very little left to salvage. There is no reward for mediocrity - meaning a 6th, 7th, or 8th playoff seed. You are correct in that rebuilding could take years.

That was the blueprint that OKC followed and look where they are at now. With smart and astute drafting, along with a solid free agent signing or two, they've positioned themselves as solid contenders for the next 7 years. I believe that's what the Spurs must do. Count me as one who believes that the first phase of the rebuild project should begin immediately.

Therefore, trading probably the team's best asset, Parker, would be a way to bring in a combination of a young player and picks. The Spurs badly need to begin stockpiling assets so they can garner at least two 1st round picks in either the 2012 or 2013 NBA drafts.

Because the Spurs will have a very difficult time attracting free agents, they will have to rely primarily on the draft, the international market and taking flyers on unsigned free agents. I'd rather them start taking their lumps now, while building for the future, than witness another year or two of regular season glory, ending in early playoff failure.

[NewcastleKEG]

But the issue is getting that decent 7'. EVERYONE is in the market for another decent 7 footer. Teams over draft them and over pay for them all the time. Size is the biggest premium in this league

That's why you'll see the Blazers bring Oden back although he's done nothing more than cash in their money for the past 3 seasons. We'll see what the market demands for an injury prone Yao

Say you somehow magically add a Tyson Chandler type, it's an assumption that Duncan will improve his game. Are you still able to hold onto your depth Dice, Bonner & Tiago in the process?

Having Duncan/Chandler down low still leaves the Spurs behind the Thunder & Lakers, who themselves already have that post DUO.

Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Sefolosha > Manu, Parker, Hill/Neal, Jefferson


I think Spur fan needs to realize that the roster isn't just 1 post player away, especially 1 decent post player away from being a le contender. You would need Manu to stay healthy and Parker to up his game. He's getting out played by Conley right now. . .

If you hold onto the Triplets til the bitter end you will end up the Celtics from the 80's. Finals in the late 80's to ECF & SemiFinals in the early 90's and once Bird, McHale and Parrish finally retired the franchise was left with NOTHING. And they fell into a 6 year run without the playoffs

[SenorSpur]

But the issue is getting that decent 7'. EVERYONE is in the market for another decent 7 footer. Teams over draft them and over pay for them all the time. Size is the biggest premium in this league

That's why you'll see the Blazers bring Oden back although he's done nothing more than cash in their money for the past 3 seasons. We'll see what the market demands for an injury prone Yao

Say you somehow magically add a Tyson Chandler type, it's an assumption that Duncan will improve his game. Are you still able to hold onto your depth Dice, Bonner & Tiago in the process?

Having Duncan/Chandler down low still leaves the Spurs behind the Thunder & Lakers, who themselves already have that post DUO.

Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Sefolosha > Manu, Parker, Hill/Neal, Jefferson


I think Spur fan needs to realize that the roster isn't just 1 post player away, especially 1 decent post player away from being a le contender. You would need Manu to stay healthy and Parker to up his game. He's getting out played by Conley right now. . .

If you hold onto the Triplets til the bitter end you will end up the Celtics from the 80's. Finals in the late 80's to ECF & SemiFinals in the early 90's and once Bird, McHale and Parrish finally retired the franchise was left with NOTHING. And they fell into a 6 year run without the playoffs

With the bad money tied up in non-performing players like RJ and Bonner, combined with the $21mil that Duncan is owed next year, the Spurs aren't even close to being able to throw money at a guy like Chandler. I think folks are promoting this idea prematurely.

[NewcastleKEG]

Jamstone, I respect your opinion highly. I agree with a portion of what you've stated. Personally, I don't see where there are trades and moves to be made that can give the Spurs a legitimate shot to contend again even IF Ginobili stays. There is no reward for mediocrity - meaning a 6th, 7th, or 8th playoff seed. I'm of the opinion that the first phase of the rebuild project should begin immediately.

Therefore, trading probably the team's best asset, Parker, would be a way to bring in a combination of a young player and picks. The Spurs badly need to begin stockpiling assets so they can garner at least two 1st round picks in either the 2012 or 2013 NBA drafts.

Because the Spurs will have a very difficult time attracting free agents, they will have to rely primarily on the draft, the international market and taking flyers on unsigned free agents.

Every franchise who has felt and lived through greatness has to make that tough decision. Are we a Championship Franchise or were we merely riding the wave that Player A or B created?

Franchises like the Lakers, 49ers, and Braves were able to sustain decades of winning by letting players go 1 year too early than 1 year too late.

Lakers traded Shaq (struggled for 2,3 years) and used those pieces in the trade to build a new Dynasty

49ers let greats like Ronnie Lott, Joe Montana and Roger Craig go/traded and were able to win another SB

Braves won through trades & and a great farm system (draft)


All these franchises had to make the tough decisions to let HOF players walk/trade them away to be able to reload.

Are the Spurs a franchise like that? Or are they merely Tim Duncan's franchise and will never reload again?

[NewcastleKEG]

With the bad money tied up in non-performing players like RJ and Bonner, combined with the $21mil that Duncan is owed next year, the Spurs aren't even close to being able to throw money at a guy like Chandler. I think folks are promoting this idea prematurely.

Agreed. Spurs missed the ship on dealing with the Knicks who were willing with ANYONE. They would have eaten a bad contract and givin you nice pieces in return for Parker

For the Spurs sake, hopefully your front office realizes this regular season was a mirage and there is no reason to keep the status quo because your trading pieces lose value by the day & each day your nearing a Shaq/Orlando situation where he walks/retires and your left with nothing

[J_Paco]

I think it starts with a change to the philosophical approach of the team. With the decline of Tim, Pop decided that it was time to use the strengths of the team and change into a more open and uptempo style. And now we see yet again that just like the Phoenix Suns, the style of play can have success in the regular season, but will generally have trouble in the post season against teams with a more halfcourt style. I think the franchise has to re-assess the change of philosophy going forward. There's nothing wrong with having the ability to get up and down, but a team needs to be able to have the ability to play in a halfcourt style as well. Beyond that, much of the success the Spurs had earlier in the season saw guys like Bonner and Richard Jefferson going crazy from three point land. Once again, we see the old adage is true about living by the three and dying by the three.

Now, taking that into consideration, I don't make major changes to the core. As a Pistons fan, I know what it's like kicking and screaming for change to the core of a team that is successful but seemingly can't get over the top anymore. The Spurs just won 61 games, had a great season for all intents and purposes, and now will seemingly fall to a team that matches up well against them. There is still a lot of positives for this Spurs team. I think the changes need to be philosophical first, and minor roster moves secondly.

I do think they need to do everything they can to ship out Matt Bonner, but he does have three years left on his contract. I don't think Jefferson is tradeable. The only core guy I think could return the Spurs some pretty good value is Tony Parker. But like I said above, I would not be so quick to make major changes to the core.

As well as the philosophical change, I would go into the off-season with this approach:

1. Working all summer with Tiago Splitter to make him a viable option to start. Do whatever it takes, call Hakeem to work with him, let Duncan and David Robinson spend a couple months with him. Whatever it takes. The Spurs made the investment, and now after what seems like a wasted year for him, they should take measures to try to make him a guy they can count on going forward. It's time to use him.

2. Find another back-up big man who has the ability to score in the post. We all know Duncan has started his decline. I don't think he's finished like some do, but he certainly needs help in the frontcourt when it comes to scoring. I think the Bonner experiment has to be over. And as much as I respect him and hoped he could taste a championship, I think it's time for Dice to hang it up. With limited salary to work with, I think the Spurs have to find a cheap option that may surprise. I look at a guy like Carl Landry and although he might not fly under the radar and New Orleans will likely try to keep him, he is a guy who might be affordable and can provide some scoring in the frontcourt. Getting a front court scorer who isn't a three point shooter on the second unit could prove to be very valuable.

3. Add one more legit big for beef and depth. If the Spurs can figure out a way to dump Bonner (have to dump him or Pop will play him if he's on the roster) and Dice retires, then they would still have Duncan, Tiago, Blair, and (as I suggested, someone like) Landry. But as we know, it doesn't hurt to stockpile bigs just in case, especially in the West. A fifth big who has size and beef could also prove valuable. Someone like a Jason Collins or bringing back Nazr on the cheap or even a Magloire, realizing those guys would only be for insurance and to throw at frontcourts like the Lakers.

I think going back to a more halfcourt style and also revamping the frontcourt could put the Spurs back into a better position for the playoffs next season.

I don't think a 60 win season is something to scoff at just because of this first round disappointment. Unless Tim Duncan decides to retire, I think you continue to try to field a team that has a chance to go deep in the playoffs before blowing it all up. I've seen the misery of calling for major changes only to see that having a really good team who doesn't win it all is still better than going through the depression of having a horrible lottery team with no guarantee that it will get back to an elite level even with the changes made. Until Duncan is done for good, you keep the core and try again. You don't blow it all up yet.

Jamstone, FTW.

Also, finding a real back-up SF that can defend and knock down three-pointers is huge. The Spurs may need to move either Hill, Neal or Anderson, possibly some combination of the three, to accomplish that but it needs to be done. I like Anderson more as the back-up SG, so moving either Hill or Neal should happen, IMO.

Is Chris Wilcox coming off the books this summer? He is a poor man's Drew Gooden, that isn't a complement by the way, but could be a good cheap option to ponder.....

Are the Spurs a franchise like that? Or are they merely Tim Duncan's franchise and will never reload again?

Bull , especially coming from a Chicago Bulls fan. The Bulls were/are Michael Jordan's franchise and it has taken them 14-15 years of misery, mediocre play and philosophy changes to become compe ive again. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and keep the team intact, because there is no guarantee a new "core" can ever accomplish the same thing. If, like Olajuwon and Ewing, Timmy wants to move on and the Spurs agree to it then so be it. Releasing, waiving, letting leave or trading the greatest player this franchise has ever seen would cause long-term (PR) damage.

[elemento]

Jamstone is one of the best posters in Spurstalk

Very nice post !

[NewcastleKEG]

Bull , especially coming from a Chicago Bulls fan. The Bulls were/are Michael Jordan's franchise and it has taken them 14-15 years of misery, mediocre play and philosophy changes to become compe ive again. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and keep the team intact, because there is no guarantee a new "core" can ever accomplish the same thing. If, like Olajuwon and Ewing, Timmy wants to move on and the Spurs agree to it then so be it. Releasing, waiving, letting leave or trading the greatest player this franchise has ever seen would cause long-term (PR) damage.

Bulls are a bad but also good example of what the Spurs should do

Jordan retired, which would be best case scenario for Duncan in Spur fans perspective. You get a ton of cap money & you don't have to watch him on another team

While they did indeed sign & trade Pippen, they got NOTHING in return - Roy Rogers and a future second round draft pick. And they waived Rogers a week later! They simply released Rodman.

Bulls wasted countless draft picks and poor trades which led to the decade of rebuilding. They had Elton Brand (dominating Heat tonight) and Ron Artest the following season and should have built on that. They had easily the dumbest front office in the league and made so many stupid trades. Spur fan shouldn't worry about that with a reliable front office that drafts well and helps players mature (yes even with the Tiago stuff currently going on)

Plus it would have been different if Jordan's Bulls were steadily declining. This would be Duncan's 3rd 1st Round lose in 4 years?