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  1. #101
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Shrillness and bloviation. You can take Darrin's word for it, he's an expert.
    lol, gfy wh

  2. #102
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Having grownup in poverty is probably why I find it hard to understand why many think you have to make big bucks to be happy or to raise a family. Also why I'm so frugal, a cheap ass some may say. I want my kids to be happy with their lives and it isn't all about the money. Yes, I want them to have the things they want but I also don't want them to concentrate on the material things in life. While we may have been poor in my early days..we were happy.
    Who said anything about making the big bucks in order to be happy? That being said, statistics don't lie. The amount of money your parents make is a huge indicator on how your life will turn out to be because of how hard it is to climb the social ladder. No one is saying it can't happen but its harder. Much harder.

  3. #103
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    gfy!

  4. #104
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with being frugal. I'm quite a cheap ass myself. I agree that you don't have to have a lot of material possessions to be happy. We live in a consumer culture that makes you feel somehow inferior if you don't own the latest Apple gizmo. My family was quite poor when I was young, but my mom worked hard enough to get us a slightly better life in SA. Moving to the west side of SA in the late 70's was a step up for us. It's good to teach your kids that material things aren't what matters. It's equally important to teach them to work hard and try their best at school, sports, work, etc.
    Both my parents never got past the 6th grade but worked their way up and then my dad got hired at General Motors and we moved up to middle class but my parents never spoiled us and it wasn't until later that I realized my dad was making very good money which by today's standards some wouldn't think it was that good. But I do realize that the cost of living has risen and will continue to rise and that education is the key.

  5. #105
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    Who said anything about making the big bucks in order to be happy? That being said, statistics don't lie. The amount of money your parents make is a huge indicator on how your life will turn out to be because of how hard it is to climb the social ladder. No one is saying it can't happen but its harder. Much harder.
    I said it because I know many who feel that way. The money your parents make is an indicator but it shouldn't be an excuse or used as a crutch. I know there are cir stances when it does make it almost impossible to break out of poverty. I used to be that the next generation had it better but that is not the case because it isn't as easy as it was in my dad's time when you could walk out of HS and straight into a high paying job at GM. By the time I graduated GM was no longer hiring. But I also believe a parents support and guidance is a much bigger factor than how much money they make.

  6. #106
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    luxuries like air conditioning


    No need to even bother after reading that crap.


    Always have been amazed how some people actually have no idea whatsoever in any sense of the word, haven't got the slightest clue at all what it's truly like to be poor. That's why we see garbage spewed like this trash article. Not even funny actually, it's just plain sad.

  7. #107
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    My wife has taught for 20 yrs and she tells me of children who come to school with the same clothes on for an entire week. This includes socks and underwear..she said the kids' clothes stink.. she also feels terrible ofr them as they are ostricized by their classmates.. she says it's hard sometimes to not get emotional when she encounters these kids..

    but I guess if they A/C where they live they are not bad off....
    I've seen this type of thing personally too many times.

  8. #108
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    But why does not having a lot of clothes mean they have to be dirty and smelly? Would you accept there might be a little parental negligence here as well?

  9. #109
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    At this article. These two sentences placed together should say everything you need to know about it.

    In the kitchen, the household had a microwave, refrigerator, and an oven and stove. Other household conveniences included a washer and dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a coffee maker.
    A fridge, oven and stove are "conveniences"?

  10. #110
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    But why does not having a lot of clothes mean they have to be dirty and smelly? Would you accept there might be a little parental negligence here as well?
    I might submit that they can't afford the best detergents and have to ration it, or not be able to afford it at all. Water will only go so far with the same clothes. I know of families who couldn't pay the water bill and got there water shut off. Local charities exhaust monies frequently to help families in need to pay utilities. I know low income parents who work and still have problems paying for the necessities.

  11. #111
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    $250 k doesn't buy that much more after taxes...

    The more you make, the more you want.

    Nicer car, nicer clothes, nicer house...

    Still the same problems.
    Whose fault is that? I guess the person making 250K should be smarter with their money, as people making 25K are often told to do.

  12. #112
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    But why does not having a lot of clothes mean they have to be dirty and smelly? Would you accept there might be a little parental negligence here as well?
    You just simply may not understand if you've never lived in poverty. Not your fault at all.

  13. #113
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    You just simply may not understand if you've never lived in poverty. Not your fault at all.

  14. #114
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I might submit that they can't afford the best detergents and have to ration it, or not be able to afford it at all. Water will only go so far with the same clothes. I know of families who couldn't pay the water bill and got there water shut off. Local charities exhaust monies frequently to help families in need to pay utilities. I know low income parents who work and still have problems paying for the necessities.

  15. #115
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    You just simply may not understand if you've never lived in poverty. Not your fault at all.
    Pretty true. My mother has told me stories about how their whole family split a couple of tortillas and ONE tomatoe because that was all they had. I dont' think I've ever seen it that bad, but I've had it bad at times.

  16. #116
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    I might submit that they can't afford the best detergents and have to ration it, or not be able to afford it at all. Water will only go so far with the same clothes. I know of families who couldn't pay the water bill and got there water shut off. Local charities exhaust monies frequently to help families in need to pay utilities. I know low income parents who work and still have problems paying for the necessities.
    Certainly we can agree that there are some that fall into this category. But there are certainly others who choose to spend what little money they have on unnecessary expenses. When I was living in the inner city I don't know how many times I saw people using food stamps to buy their food and then spending cash on smokes, beer, lottery tickets.

    I am not for ceasing all welfare, but I am for trimming it. I think it is too easy to get a handout in this country and I think that there is insufficient oversight over such programs. It is reasonable for the government to provide basic necessities such as education, food and medical care. Money to buy video games, tvs, cars and cell phones, not so much.

  17. #117
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  18. #118
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    conservative and liberal tactics are both helpful. going on experience alone, a lot of people need serious government aid, no question about that. but then there's a substantial proportion of those getting government aid who abuse the system.

    comparing the US standards of living to that of any other country is re ed though. America has always stood for something greater/set higher standards for itself in terms of living standards.

  19. #119
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    The idea that government-sponsored welfare programs to assist the needy are compatible with, and justified by, Christian philosophy is probably the most widespread erroneous belief that permeates American society, and is hastening the destruction of freedom in the United States. This tragic flaw in the thinking of both well-educated and uneducated Christians has already brought misery to millions, and if this thinking persists in this country, it will result in economic chaos followed by political totalitarianism.


    http://www.thoughtsfromaconservativemom.com/?p=712
    can you sum up what exactly "Christian philosophy" means?

  20. #120
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    "America has always stood for something greater/set higher standards for itself in terms of living standards."

    America's natural resources delivered most of America's wealth, not its "standards".

  21. #121
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    But its not valid because we don't live in other parts of the world. You can't just say you're better off than country X's poor and thats good enough because when you live in country A there are different socioeconomic factors to consider. My point above was that if we're going to base what is poor in this country off of other countries standards then if we do that for the rich we're going to place a lot more in the upper tax bracket and obviously thats not going to fly.

    Poverty in this country is the main factor for people falling behind the curve in pretty much every factor. Health, education, etc etc. Even though that people in this country have more relative wealth than the poor in other countries, if you're poor in this country it doesn't mean you're necessarily better off. That's the real comparison that should be made. If you want to compare our poor to the poor of other nations then feel free to do so but do so on the merits of where they stand on quality of life and what direction that trend of the quality of life is going.

    There's also the fact that for some reason the debate around helping the poor in this country is always centered upon that help being some kind of hand out when in fact the focus should be on how the help is actually more beneficial to society as a whole. Having people lag behind inevitably holds back the entire society a great deal but we prefer short sighted politics instead of pragmatic view points.
    Certainly we can agree that there are some that fall into this category. But there are certainly others who choose to spend what little money they have on unnecessary expenses. When I was living in the inner city I don't know how many times I saw people using food stamps to buy their food and then spending cash on smokes, beer, lottery tickets.

    I am not for ceasing all welfare, but I am for trimming it. I think it is too easy to get a handout in this country and I think that there is insufficient oversight over such programs. It is reasonable for the government to provide basic necessities such as education, food and medical care. Money to buy video games, tvs, cars and cell phones, not so much.

  22. #122
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    "America has always stood for something greater/set higher standards for itself in terms of living standards."

    America's natural resources delivered most of America's wealth, not its "standards".
    Bingo. But let the national myth live on. We're here because we're AMERICAN damn it - not because of vast natural resources coupled with two oceans to separate us from most of the effects of war.

  23. #123
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    the economic bubble and the future imminent US economic troubles will finally bring the US middle class to reality.

    For years thanks to credit cards and massive loans, the middle class has been living like kings pretty much. But I'm afraid that golden age which started aroudn the 1950s is about to be over.

    "what? I can't afford my boat anymore? my 75 inch plasma in my private movie theatre?? my 3 SUVs that run at 7MPG??"

    no, you are middle class. time to wake up to reality. Your great "credit" is not worth anymore. You'll be lucky to keep your house.

  24. #124
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    $250 k doesn't buy that much more after taxes...

    The more you make, the more you want.

    Nicer car, nicer clothes, nicer house...

    Still the same problems.
    I see, so in a very real way people who make 250K are as poor as people actually living in poverty.

  25. #125
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    That's a good question. That you don't have an answer is telling.
    Telling you something you might not want to hear?

    This brand of crazy is far more widespread than you seem to want to admit.

    There are a good number of moderate conservatives for whom abolishing all government social safety nets in favor of letting "charity" do it is not something they would advocate, but you can't escape the fact that there is a large chunk of the right in this country that believes precisely that.

    I will take El Nono's suggestion and find some more mainstream quotes, since dozens of websites with conservative slants saying exactly that doesn't seem to suffice to meet your bar of "commonly held". To be fair, one might use the example of 9-11 twoofers to imply that is also a "commonly held" belief among progressives, so I would not be all that ready to accept it either.

    As I said before, I am trying to be fair, and your point here is a valid criticism of the method.

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