Greater Argentinian Athlete: Manu or Messi

[Genjuro]

Compe ion among players, among teams is just the same thing, a team is made of players.
Is the top sport but only 8 out of 200 countries are good playing it, Argentina already won 2 world cups even if Messi wins right now (which I hope) he wont be doing something groundbreaking, Manu made history in Athens 2004 leading NT and beating USA that was never done before in Argieland, we already have lots of futbol players here so Manu did something different and won in Italy USA and his NT.

This is not about who's making something more original, but about who's better, isn't it?

And it's not only 8 countries. You can see in this World Cup the balance between teams. In basketball the really strong countries usually roll over their opponents.

[Mikeanaro]

This is not about who's making something more original, but about who's better, isn't it?

And it's not only 8 countries. You can see in this World Cup the balance between teams. In basketball the really strong countries usually roll over their opponents.

Is not about something more original, dude made history and you want to minimize it saying futbol is more popular, dude makes eurosteps, no look passes, dunks good for an old man, has a good 3, creates great plays, when the team runs out of ideas he is the only dude capable of create something new to make a diference, plays PG, sometimes uses his right (Messi cant 98% of the times), blocks and steals great, good defender and even makes nutmegs like nobody did, Messi is just a scorer he never makes that kind of stuff on the field, never scored a single goal in the WC 2010 how thats better than Manu?, Manu makes assists and every player on his team better Messi does it too but not at that level.
Only 8 countries and all playing like right now, there is no dominant country this tournament because all teams are so inconsistent.
I laugh my ass off when some idiots say Gay Allen is a future hall of famer but Manu is not a sure thing there.

[dunkman]

This isn't even a question. Messi is top 5 all time and ginobili is a 6th man of the year. Soccer is a world sport and in 10 years there will be 4 major leagues that matter plus hockey.

Not sure Messi is top 5 at this moment:

Pele has 2 Mundials, plus another one where was injured, 2 times South American champion with Santos
Maradona has 1 Mundial, one finals with an average team, made outsiders Napoli win two Scudettos
Zidane has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with France, Juventus and Madrid
Beckenbauer has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with Germany and 3 times in a row with Bayern
Di Stefano 5 times euro champion in a row with Madrid
Cruyff has one finals, 3 times euro champion in a row with Ajax

Messi is 3 times euro champion with the Barça, a fantastic player for sure. Top 10 IMO and will certainly advance further.

[leo_d]

Those are summer tournaments played each four years. So Tim Duncan not winning the Olympic Gold makes him worse than Ginobili?

Please...

That`s why olympics are so different from nba seasons and champions league in soccer, it´s win or die and there is no revenge the next year, or possiblity to make adjustments from game 1 to game 2 against the same opponent, and that`s the kind of achievement Messi doesn´t have (for now).

As i see it, the le of "greater athlete" is not just about statistics, but beeing able to deliver when the preassure is insane.

Defeating for the first time a USA team of nba players in 2002 and then winning the olympics in 2004 with a team with no nba players is legendary, and to me that gives the edge to Manu over Messi.

[Genjuro]

Is not about something more original, dude made history and you want to minimize it saying futbol is more popular, dude makes eurosteps, no look passes, dunks good for an old man, has a good 3, creates great plays, when the team runs out of ideas he is the only dude capable of create something new to make a diference, plays PG, sometimes uses his right (Messi cant 98% of the times), blocks and steals great, good defender and even makes nutmegs like nobody did, Messi is just a scorer he never makes that kind of stuff on the field, never scored a single goal in the WC 2010 how thats better than Manu?, Manu makes assists and every player on his team better Messi does it too but not at that level.
Only 8 countries and all playing like right now, there is no dominant country this tournament because all teams are so inconsistent.
I laugh my ass off when some idiots say Gay Allen is a future hall of famer but Manu is not a sure thing there.

Well you have a few points there:
- Ginobili certainly scores more frequently than Messi.
- Ginobili is getting to the basketball HoF and Messi not.
- Ginobili uses the eurostep more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more blocks than Messi.
- Ginobili dunks more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more 3s than Messi.

Hard to argue there.

[Genjuro]

That`s why olympics are so different from nba seasons and champions league in soccer, it´s win or die and there is no revenge the next year, or possiblity to make adjustments from game 1 to game 2 against the same opponent, and that`s the kind of achievement Messi doesn´t have (for now).

As i see it, the le of "greater athlete" is not just about statistics, but beeing able to deliver when the preassure is insane.

Defeating for the first time a USA team of nba players in 2002 and then winning the olympics in 2004 with a team with no nba players is legendary, and to me that gives the edge to Manu over Messi.

It's not that Argentina was the only team beating the USA in those years.

And I have to infer that you think Ginobili is better than Duncan.

[Mikeanaro]

Well you have a few points there:
- Ginobili certainly scores more frequently than Messi.
- Ginobili is getting to the basketball HoF and Messi not.
- Ginobili uses the eurostep more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more blocks than Messi.
- Ginobili dunks more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more 3s than Messi.

Hard to argue there.

Yeah, now tell me something equivalent in futbol that Messi does better than Big Nose.

[Genjuro]

Yeah, now tell me something equivalent in futbol that Messi does better than Big Nose.

Crappy such as being the greatest goaler of the modern era or the best dribbler in the world, while being also a great passer.

[Mikeanaro]

Crappy such as being the greatest goaler of the modern era or the best dribbler in the world, while being also a great passer in his own.

Greatest goaler when Spain league has just 3 good teams and 36 games in the tournament they dont play 82 games and the playoffs I would love to see Messi playing 100 games per season to see how athletic he is, best dribbler and great passer, 2 and a half reasons vs 10.

[leo_d]

Is the only one that defeat them twice, and the only one in history to defeat them in an elimination game in the olympics. Every player in the US team would have been starter in team Argentina, and no player of Argentina would have been selected to team USA. In fact they lose by 30 in the previous encounter.

this thread was not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but i´m pretty sure Ginobili can be considered the greatest argentinian athlete, and Duncan will not be considered the greatest american athlete.

To put things in perspective, what Manu did, is like if Messi was american, and ended up winning the WC against Brazil with a team full of players not playing any european league, it just can´t be done...


...but Manu did it.

[Relevancy]

Lmao are you ing serious

Messi by miles

[100%duncan]

Just wait till Oscar pushes Messi's back to his hole. If the Args even get there.

Tee hee

[Genjuro]

Is the only one that defeat them twice, and the only one in history to defeat them in an elimination game in the olympics. Every player in the US team would have been starter in team Argentina, and no player of Argentina would have been selected to team USA. In fact they lose by 30 in the previous encounter.

this thread was not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but i´m pretty sure Ginobili can be considered the greatest argentinian athlete, and Duncan will not be considered the greatest american athlete.

To put things in perspective, what Manu did, is like if Messi was american, and ended up winning the WC against Brazil with a team full of players not playing any european league, it just can´t be done...


...but Manu did it.

It's summer compe ion, it's a US all-star squad that was beaten by Puerto Rico, Lithuania, demolished by Italy in preparation. It's the Nightmare Team. You can not put so much stock there, it's ridiculous. You can't value players for an 8-game tournament they play as many as twice in their prime. It's nonsense.

Of course this thread is not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but that reasoning leads to that kind of stupid outcome, like Ginobili being better than Duncan.

If we're reducing the discussion to Argentina, and we take the rest of the world out of the equation, even for comparision purposes, then it's a close call. Manu is hands down the best basketball player in the country, and Messi shares the top spot with Maradona (or he's second, whatever). But then again, football is like 10 times bigger there than basketball, so being a top-2 player in huge sport compared to being the top player in a small one is probably more valuable.

[Genjuro]

Greatest goaler when Spain league has just 3 good teams and 36 games in the tournament they dont play 82 games and the playoffs I would love to see Messi playing 100 games per season to see how athletic he is, best dribbler and great passer, 2 and a half reasons vs 10.

I'm lost here: you're joking, right? 2 and half reasons vs 10? How old are you?

Anyway, Messi has been four times the top goaler of the Champions League.

Football has not anything to do with basketball. That's why you won't see back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest. And yet, Messi plays every year north of 60 games, which is a huge amount for a football player.

[Mikeanaro]

I'm lost here: you're joking, right? 2 and half reasons vs 10? How old are you?

Anyway, Messi has been four times the top goaler of the Champions League.

Football has not anything to do with basketball. That's why you won't see back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest. And yet, Messi plays every year north of 60 games, which is a huge amount for a football player.

Four times top goaler and 0 goals in WC 2010 weird facts right?
Basketball is more physically exhausting that futbol, even fatsos play here some amateur without sweating for 90 minutes you dont have to run all the time and Barcelona is/was passing style ticky ticky he made his runs in the past, but for the last two years he has been more ecstatic and that Barcelona team was so good that with a couple of Real Madrid players won the last WC.
You are lost? 2 and a half reasons vs 10 plus what leo_d was saying.

[leo_d]

It's summer compe ion, it's a US all-star squad that was beaten by Puerto Rico, Lithuania, demolished by Italy in preparation. It's the Nightmare Team. You can not put so much stock there, it's ridiculous. You can't value players for an 8-game tournament they play as many as twice in their prime. It's nonsense.

Of course this thread is not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but that reasoning leads to that kind of stupid outcome, like Ginobili being better than Duncan.

If we're reducing the discussion to Argentina, and we take the rest of the world out of the equation, even for comparision purposes, then it's a close call. Manu is hands down the best basketball player in the country, and Messi shares the top spot with Maradona (or he's second, whatever). But then again, football is like 10 times bigger there than basketball, so being a top-2 player in huge sport compared to being the top player in a small one is probably more valuable.

I will try to explain myself better.

To me, being the "greatest" implies to do something that no one else could do. It takes some heroics to be the greatest. That´s why Maradona is still above Messi even if he didn´t win any champions leagues.

The fact that basketball is the third or fourth sport in Argentina only strongs Manu´s case, because is much harder to make a compe ive team.

The US record in the basketball olympics is ridiculous. (in 16 editions 13 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronces), i can´t tell if that record is the most dominant of any country in a major sport, but it must be pretty close.

And also is not like Manu doesn´t have a pretty impressive CV full with long tournaments.

Manu and Maradona are not just numbers, they`ve got something else. Making a load of goals in a 2 team league doesn´t make you the greatest athlete of a country, beating other countries to a championship does.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

I first learned who Messi was about a month ago..... Futbol

[emanueldavidginobili]

You're asking whose the greater athlete? Manu is 6'6 and in his prime was crazy athletic

[Genjuro]

Four times top goaler and 0 goals in WC 2010 weird facts right?
Basketball is more physically exhausting that futbol, even fatsos play here some amateur without sweating for 90 minutes you dont have to run all the time and Barcelona is/was passing style ticky ticky he made his runs in the past, but for the last two years he has been more ecstatic and that Barcelona team was so good that with a couple of Real Madrid players won the last WC.
You are lost? 2 and a half reasons vs 10 plus what leo_d was saying.

Argentina's run in WC 2010 was 5 games deep. It was a crazy team coached by a crazy guy such as Maradona, and Messi was placed as a mid-fielder. You can't put so much stock on 5 games played by such a casual team, when these guys play hundreds of them along their careers. And yet, his current scoring record at the WCs is 5 goals in 12 games, which is pretty good. This is like if you throw Duncan's career to the waste because of the 2004 Olympic Games.

2 and a half reasons vs 10: Considering Ginobili is so tricky and such an alll-around player, you will find many more reasons for him than for Shaquille O'Neal. Idiotic propositions lead to idiotic outcome. If you're the best goaler, the best dribbler and a great passer, you're just the best offensive player in the world, period.

LOL at fatsos playing some amateur games. Fatsos have indeed played in the NBA. I have never seen one in elite football. You don't know what you're talking about saying that basketball is more physically exhausting that football. There's a reason why there are no back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest in football, the physical toll is too much, you can't take players out of the field at will, and they run a lot more than basketball players: http://www.runnersworld.com/fun/dist...various-sports

[Genjuro]

I will try to explain myself better.

To me, being the "greatest" implies to do something that no one else could do. It takes some heroics to be the greatest. That´s why Maradona is still above Messi even if he didn´t win any champions leagues.

The fact that basketball is the third or fourth sport in Argentina only strongs Manu´s case, because is much harder to make a compe ive team.

The US record in the basketball olympics is ridiculous. (in 16 editions 13 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronces), i can´t tell if that record is the most dominant of any country in a major sport, but it must be pretty close.

And also is not like Manu doesn´t have a pretty impressive CV full with long tournaments.

Manu and Maradona are not just numbers, they`ve got something else. Making a load of goals in a 2 team league doesn´t make you the greatest athlete of a country, beating other countries to a championship does.

So Ginobili is greater than Larry Bird, right? After all, winning les for the Celtics is nothing anybody else wouldn't do.

When you measure all-time greatness in one sport, you can't put so much stock on such a short event played every four years. If we were limiting the discussion to FIBA-born players, it would be debatable; but this is all-time around-the-world . Also, that US Team, besides playing like if it were pick-up games, wasn't even close to feature the best players from the country. You're giving top importance to a compe ion not even many of the best players attend. It's laughable.

Messi makes a load of goals in a 2-team league, but also in the Champions League: 4 times top scorer.

[Rapper]

In Argrntina, 90% people dont know basketball and no one will care about NBA.

NBA just belongs to American

[leo_d]

...
Messi makes a load of goals in a 2-team league, but also in the Champions League: 4 times top scorer.

And yet, that is not the most important soccer compe ion in the world, WC is.

Manu has rings and medals, the edge goes for him.

[Genjuro]

And yet, that is not the most important soccer compe ion in the world, WC is.

Yes, WC is. But when evaluating football players, the fact that WCs are 7-game compe ions played every four years is taken into account. That's why Alfredo Di Stéfano is widely (almost unanimously) considered an all-time top-5 football player despite doing less than Messi on WCs.

Manu has rings and medals, the edge goes for him.

LOL, the edge. The edge goes for Horry over Duncan.

[leo_d]

Yes, WC is. But when evaluating football players, the fact that WCs are 7-game compe ions played every four years is taken into account. That's why Alfredo Di Stéfano is widely (almost unanimously) considered an all-time top-5 football player despite doing less than Messi on WCs..

Pele never won a championship league, would you say Zidane was better than him.

[leo_d]

LOL, the edge. The edge goes for Horry over Duncan.

what???

you can try to mix Bird, Duncan and Horry in the discussion, but the reality is that if Messi fails to win the most important compe on of his sport, he will not be considered the best argentinian soccer player, much less the greater athlete, maybe the greatest barcelona player.