NBA Retrometrics: David Robinson Underrated

[baseline bum]

And it's not because of anything you're implying, either. The '99 Jazz, the second best team in the league that year, would have been about a sixth seed in the Eastern conference in '91.

No way the 99 Jazz were the second best team that year. Portland smoked them, and LA would have too. I'm not even sure they'd beat New York.

[Phenomanul]

2005 Manu wouldn't be able to perform like 2005 Manu because the paint would be totally closed. The 1995 spurs just do no have enough shooters to open up the lane, and rodmans man can basically drift from him and double whoever he wants.

That somewhat understates Manu's outside game... it's because he could shoot the three that people couldn't play him with one particular defensive scheme.

The answer is not simple, but replacing Vinny with 2005 Manu would have been sufficient to have changed the dynamics of the '95 Spurs-Rockets series... enough to have tilted it the Spurs favor...

2005 Manu was a defensive pest. He had a way of getting under people's skin, getting a critical steal, forcing a critical turnover, etc... That alone would have wreaked havoc on their guards (Smith / Drexler / Cassell) and not allowed them to get into rhythm...

Last but not least, that series was closer than people remember it. After Houston took both games IN San Antonio (including the sabotaged Rodman game) the Spurs went back and took both games in Houston... That was by no means a simple thing to do. Game 5 was a blowout and San Antonio came within a few plays of forcing a Game 7. And that despite Hakeem playing otherworldly basketball...

[Obstructed_View]

Eh. I was still crapping my diapers back then, so I won't argue too much. But the narrative that I've heard was that the Bulls needed to get the right players around Michael before they could get over the hump. It wasn't as simple as Jordan being the greatest, so of course Chicago was going to win six les.

Well that part is true. Jordan certainly couldn't do it by himself, great as he was, and couldn't have done it without Pippen and the role players he ended up with. Duncan's rookie-year teammates were better than almost any of Jordan's.

[Obstructed_View]

No way the 99 Jazz were the second best team that year. Portland smoked them, and LA would have too. I'm not even sure they'd beat New York.

By record, they were. The point remains: None of the teams you mentioned would have made a dent in the East playoffs in '91.

[Mark in Austin]

The whole idea of who would perform better if Tim and Dave switched eras is just silly. Duncan would have left if he was surrounded with the teammates and coaches cheap ass Red McCombs put around Robinson. Prime Robinson with Parker, Ginobili, etc plus no other centers worth a in the league AND no hand checking? Jesus Christ he would be a ing monster.

[baseline bum]

By record, they were. The point remains: None of the teams you mentioned would have made a dent in the East playoffs in '91.

I don't think the East playoffs were that good in 91. Mark Price was out for most of the year, so no Cavs in the playoffs. New York was below .500 and didn't get that big infusion of talent until the next year. Detroit was out of gas after 3 Finals trips. Bird was washed up and Boston's 56 wins were fool's gold. Philly was spiraling out of control.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think the East playoffs were that good in 91. Mark Price was out for most of the year, so no Cavs in the playoffs. New York was below .500 and didn't get that big infusion of talent until the next year. Detroit was out of gas after 3 Finals trips. Bird was washed up and Boston's 56 wins were fool's gold. Philly was spiraling out of control.

Before we persist in this discussion that you're determined to have, are you trying to suggest that Chinook was correct in saying that the reason it only took Duncan two years to win and it took Jordan seven is because Jordan was indeed hard to build around? Or do you agree with me that Jordan was drafted by a legitimate 27-win team in a massively-deep eastern conference and Duncan was drafted by a 50-win team that had a bad year in an open window full of aging superstars and young teams? You might make the case that Jordan took advantage of that, at least in his first le year. Not so much the next two, as Portland and Phoenix were really ing good teams.

[baseline bum]

Before we persist in this discussion that you're determined to have, are you trying to suggest that Chinook was correct in saying that the reason it only took Duncan two years to win and it took Jordan seven is because Jordan was indeed hard to build around? Or do you agree with me that Jordan was drafted by a legitimate 27-win team in a massively-deep eastern conference and Duncan was drafted by a 50-win team that had a bad year in an open window full of aging superstars and young teams? You might make the case that Jordan took advantage of that, at least in his first le year. Not so much the next two, as Portland and Phoenix were really ing good teams.

I agree on Jordan, just not on 1991. 1992-98 the East was pretty brutal, just not 91.

[ambchang]

That somewhat understates Manu's outside game... it's because he could shoot the three that people couldn't play him with one particular defensive scheme.

The answer is not simple, but replacing Vinny with 2005 Manu would have been sufficient to have changed the dynamics of the '95 Spurs-Rockets series... enough to have tilted it the Spurs favor...

2005 Manu was a defensive pest. He had a way of getting under people's skin, getting a critical steal, forcing a critical turnover, etc... That alone would have wreaked havoc on their guards (Smith / Drexler / Cassell) and not allowed them to get into rhythm...

Last but not least, that series was closer than people remember it. After Houston took both games IN San Antonio (including the sabotaged Rodman game) the Spurs went back and took both games in Houston... That was by no means a simple thing to do. Game 5 was a blowout and San Antonio came within a few plays of forcing a Game 7. And that despite Hakeem playing otherworldly basketball...

Fair enough, but manu, as good as an outside shooter he is, is best used as a driver and creator. With he lanes packed his effectiveness would be decreased. I am not satin they won't win a championship, I'm saying 2005 Manu will not be 2005 Manu on the 1995 spurs.

[barbacoataco]

I think Ginobili brings a fierceness and compe ive fire that the mid 90-s Spurs really lacked. Basketball isn't all X's and O's, it is also team chemistry and at ude. Both Robinson and Sean seemed to kind of shrink away from the pressure. But I think a player like Ginobili would have inspired them and given them confidence.

[exstatic]

Fair enough, but manu, as good as an outside shooter he is, is best used as a driver and creator. With he lanes packed his effectiveness would be decreased. I am not satin they won't win a championship, I'm saying 2005 Manu will not be 2005 Manu on the 1995 spurs.

A Manu/pre-injury Robinson pick and roll would be a holy terror.

[Mark in Austin]

A Manu/pre-injury Robinson pick and roll would be a holy terror.

But I'm not sure a 2005 Manu on the 1995 Spurs would find all the cracks we're used to him finding when he is dropped into the handcheck era.

[barbacoataco]

But I'm not sure a 2005 Manu on the 1995 Spurs would find all the cracks we're used to him finding when he is dropped into the handcheck era.

The 2005 Pistons were a physical defense and Manu still scored.

[Mark in Austin]

The 2005 Pistons were a physical defense and Manu still scored.

There's a huge difference in physicality between the pre and post hand check rule eras.

[Phenomanul]

There's a huge difference in physicality between the pre and post hand check rule eras.

And yet those Piston teams allowed a beastly <89 PPG for the season... one of the best marks in the post-shot clock era... and without the benefit of utilizing perimeter-based hand-checking (though I would argue in the same breath that Ben Wallace routinely got away with hand-checking in the paint - particularly against Duncan).

Their defense was quick and proficient, and while still very physical THAT wasn't the focus of their effectiveness... Getting physical with prime-Manu (circa 2004-2005) was usually not a good idea as that only made him angrier and more willing to take over the game...

The more I think about it... especially considering the huge leap in court vision over anybody on that 1995 Spurs squad (Robinson would've had a dunk party) and his trademark tenacity, there's no way the Spurs would have faltered that year if 2005 Manu was on that squad infusing his compe ive fire into that series...

[Phenomanul]

Let's not forget we're talking about who he would've replaced...

Scrub Vinny...

[Obstructed_View]

I agree on Jordan, just not on 1991. 1992-98 the East was pretty brutal, just not 91.

That's fair. Okay, I'll give you that 1991 was relatively a down year, but the six years prior and the six years following were amazingly deep. Even with the down year, I think all the teams I mentioned would have smoked most everyone in the league in '99, particularly the Knicks.

[Obstructed_View]

Let's not forget we're talking about who he would've replaced...

Scrub Vinny...

Manu + addition by subtraction = le.