Mavs: daily reminder that

[Splits]

Yep. Data trumps an anecdotal "argument from experience" every time.

Except when your data is flawed and is provided by partisan, anti-immigrant groups

No, I just see as a revealing look into their actual mentality and/or lack of manners. It tells me you're here but would rather be somewhere else. Call it a personal pet peeve, whatever. I know I wouldn't fly the American flag in Germany out of respect for being a guest/immigrant in their country.

You've obviously never lived overseas. I've lived through plenty of events (World Cup qualifiers for example) where people fly their home flag on their balcony. It's really not a big deal, not sure why your vag gets so irritated by people who don't think the US is the "GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD"

But it wasn't 11 million.
Reagan isn't my hero, and his plan didn't work out too well (see the statistics I've provided).

But it was 5, and Ronny Reagan gave citizenship to the entire undo ented population. But when president Blacky McBlackBlack does it, you somehow have a problem

Yes I have. What don't you get about the difference between 90 million and 320 million people, an industrialized/agricultural based economy compared to a service sector based economy, and millions of square miles of uninhabited resource rich land compared to limited land space? If you can't figure it out, the US was a lot more capable of handling a mass influx of immigrants in the 1900s than it is today, a reality you're consciously neglecting in favor of an ideal.

Immigrants, especially when they're out of the shadows, paying taxes, and working legally, cause major direct and indirect improvements on the economy. The argument that we don't have enough space, jobs, or resources is absurdly wrong. Just look at what happened to the farming industry in Alabama when they passed their racist laws: http://mic.com/articles/8272/alabama...-farm-business.

Also too, immigration raises everyone's economic mobility: https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...opportunities/

Yes, I think a prospective immigrant should at least be a somewhat capable English speaker before immigrating. And no, I don't believe an "English language police" or other such fascists measures should be implemented. I can put this question back on you and ask, "Why should I (or an American) be the one to have to learn another language to accommodate ESL citizens?" And if you think this doesn't happen, see the scrambling to find educators who can speak Spanish (or train them to) in order to handle the growing immigrant population in schools.

This has no impact on your daily life, despite you reaching for reasons to hate Mexicans. Other countries don't put language requirements on Americans to immigrate (aside from Austria), and we shouldn't do so either.

I don't. I also don't like when a non-English speaker needs to be assisted with their forms for half-an-hour and other such inconveniences that arise from a person unable to speak this country's host language. You can regale me with tales of grandpappy all you want, but the social and economic reality is very different today, with communication being more important (and needing to be more efficient) than ever.

Yeah, because when I go to the DMV the reason I sit in line for an hour to get my license renewed is because some brown is in front of me. GTFO. Conservatives have drastically cut state and local budgets by giving tax breaks to the wealthy "job creators" at the expense of social services. Keep trying to blame it on the browns, but that's just not the case. You're waiting in line because millionaires don't want to pay taxes and have bought your politicians.

Not offended. More like annoyed. It's the same thing as you getting annoyed with overt displays of American patriotism because ebil murrica sucks the bloods from dead Palestinian babbys We both have that right to annoyance.

Except in my case my tax dollars are killing brown children, in your case there's a piece of cloth with colors on it which you don't agree with. 'MURICA

I've been the only one backing up my argument with facts, to which you still haven't addressed.

I've addressed everyone of your self-believed "facts"

And you're still making a false equivalency. You, presumably being an educated and skilled person, emigrating to Germany or somewhere, is not the same as a 250 Mexicans getting trafficked across the border by Los Zetas. Okay, you have to deal with nationalists. And? Is your (and other skilled immigrants') presence there putting a strain on that country's social services? Is it forcing a transformation of the country's service sector and education system? Is it overcrowding emergency rooms?

If your hatred party had not blocked immigrants from paying for health insurance, we wouldn't have to subsidize them.

Simple question: Why do you support open borders and unfettered immigration? Because of some ideal that is very, very difficult, if not impossible, to realize?

I don't. I support a streamlined system where anyone who wants to come here, and has a reason to be here (family + work) can come here without waiting for years or being subject to arbitrary norms such as speaking English.

You're the one living in an imaginary world.

No, I'm living in a normalized world. You're living in a new "hate the brown" world which the Republicans with their "self deportation" policies and cheering people to die if they don't have healthcare prevail:

[midnightpulp]

defending Lou Dobbs

Talk about attacking the source, there are 200+ Repubs and 2 Dems on that list of NumbersUSA A+ to B grades, with Steve King, the nations most prolific racist at the top.

whoa, stop the presses. You mean that republicans might be more inclined to support immigration reform than dems?

What a revelation!

Southern Poverty Law Center

See this is why I hate debating politics on message boards.

First, because I have a slightly conservative point of view in this case (I don't agree with closing the borders, I don't care what ethnicity said immigrants are, and I don't necessarily prefer skilled immigrants over unskilled immigrants), I must be a Ronnie Raygun loving, gun toting, Darkie hating redneck conservative! I want reasonable immigration reform in light of my state's current economic and infrastructural situation. Why is that such a far right point-of-view in your opinion? Because once-upon-a-time borders were totally open? Times change.

Secondly, because any data presented will be decried as biased. Do you really think a liberal think tank is going to present the same data in the same way as a conservative one and vice versa? I'd love to find impartial data that proves me right or wrong. But I can make a logical deduction and determine to the best of my knowledge that an open border policy is probably not a good idea for reasons I've mentioned, especially when the Cartels are starting to more and more control human trafficking.

Thirdly, because no one ever changes their opinion. I'm actually willing, but you've already built up this conservative caricature in your mind and proceeding aptly.

So here's the Pepsi challenge: Illustrate to me why a massive influx of immigrants who don't speak the language is a good thing in the year 2014.

I'm all ears.

[Splits]

So here's the Pepsi challenge: Illustrate to me why a massive influx of immigrants who don't speak the language is a good thing in the year 2014.

I'm all ears.

Because your assumption, bolded above, is completely wrong. There is no "massive influx of immigrants who don't speak the language in the year 2014" The population has been declining and is at the levels of 8 years ago. It's not an issue except for politicians who like to race-bait, and sweep up gullible, uninformed people such as yourself to believe their propaganda.

Figure 1. Mexican Immigrant Population in the United States, 1980-2013

Source: Data from U.S. Census Bureau 2006, 2010, and 2013 American Community Surveys (ACS), 2000 Decennial Census, and Campbell J. Gibson and Emily Lennon, "Historical Census Statistics on the Foreign-born Population of the United States: 1850-1990" (Working Paper No. 29, U.S. Census Bureau, Washington, DC, February 1999),www.census.gov/population/www/do entation/twps0029/twps0029.html.


EDIT: Hopefully you don't also find the Census Bureau partisan

[spurraider21]

doesn't splits call every jew in sports a zionist?

[Splits]

See this is why I hate debating politics on message boards.

Well then the next time I post a passive response to one of your ty takes and call it "stoopid", just let it go and don't beg me to respond. Then I won't have to waste 4 hours of my life clowning you, and you won't have to spend so much time backtracking trying to defend said ty take.

[Splits]

doesn't splits call every jew in sports a zionist?

Wut does that have to do with anything? Sorry if Blatt and Casspi want to expel all Arabs from Palestine, but don't see how that's relevant.

[spurraider21]

Wut does that have to do with anything? Sorry if Blatt and Casspi want to expel all Arabs from Palestine, but don't see how that's relevant.

you seem to be really passionate in defending other nationalities unless its israeli, in which case gloves are off

[midnightpulp]

Because your assumption, bolded above, is completely wrong. There is no "massive influx of immigrants who don't speak the language in the year 2014" The population has been declining and is at the levels of 8 years ago. It's not an issue except for politicians who like to race-bait, and sweep up gullible, uninformed people such as yourself to believe their propaganda.

Figure 1. Mexican Immigrant Population in the United States, 1980-2013

Source: Data from U.S. Census Bureau 2006, 2010, and 2013 American Community Surveys (ACS), 2000 Decennial Census, and Campbell J. Gibson and Emily Lennon, "Historical Census Statistics on the Foreign-born Population of the United States: 1850-1990" (Working Paper No. 29, U.S. Census Bureau, Washington, DC, February 1999),www.census.gov/population/www/do entation/twps0029/twps0029.html.

Just because it has slightly declined after a decade long rise, does not mean there wasn't a massive influx over the past two decades.

It's not an issue

Perhaps in states that have a low immigrant population, like Alabama from that article you mentioned, but 25% of of those 11 million undo ented immigrants live in California. And when you factor in their children, it does become an issue.

[midnightpulp]

Well then the next time I post a passive response to one of your ty takes and call it "stoopid", just let it go and don't beg me to respond. Then I won't have to waste 4 hours of my life clowning you, and you won't have to spend so much time backtracking trying to defend said ty take.

"Liberal talking point. Another Liberal talking point. Posted opinion piece from Progressive Organization."

"I clowned him, guise!"

[Splits]

you seem to be really passionate in defending other nationalities unless its israeli, in which case gloves are off

Not sure where you're coming from, I'm all about equality before nationality/religion, especially when nationality/religion is directly tied to oppression of the weak, vulnerable, or minority. You know, the founding tenets of America?

[midnightpulp]

you seem to be really passionate in defending other nationalities unless its israeli, in which case gloves are off

Splits is a progressive cliche.

He doesn't think too much beyond Michael Moore polemics and Howard Zinn books.

[Splits]

Just because it has slightly declined after a decade long rise, does not mean there wasn't a massive influx over the past two decades.

It's not an issue

Perhaps in states that have a low immigrant population, like Alabama from that article you mentioned, but 25% of of those 11 million undo ented immigrants live in California. And when you factor in their children, it does become an issue.

So "massive influx in 2014" has magically transformed to "massive influx in past 2 decades". Got it, but all else remains the same. Nice debate tactic

[Splits]

Pepsi challenged answered
let me change the subject of debate

[spurraider21]

Not sure where you're coming from, I'm all about equality before nationality/religion, especially when nationality/religion is directly tied to oppression of the weak, vulnerable, or minority. You know, the founding tenets of America?

i'm all about equality among nationalities and i'm generally pro-immigration. its the only reason i'm here. my parents immigrated from the ing soviet union, which was no cakewalk. my gf is still struggling with her status here even though she moved here from sweden 12 years ago, still paying international tuitions and everything. its a drag.

but i don't think that means we should turn the other way when others try to cir vent the system in place (even though i agree the system in place is ty). i'm a socal guy as well, and i see a lot of the issues mid brings up on a nearly daily basis. when i was trying to get my health insurance policy taken care of, NONE of the employees there spoke english as a first language, i had to sit there for an hour until an english speaking manager drove over

[midnightpulp]

Not sure where you're coming from, I'm all about equality before nationality/religion, especially when nationality/religion is directly tied to oppression of the weak, vulnerable, or minority. You know, the founding tenets of America?

No you're not.

You're pretty much incapable of looking at anything reasonably and objectively. Whatever position is fashionable in leftist academia, is the side you'll invariably take. You'll probably blather something about me being a racist or nationalist, but I'm not so arrogant enough to think I have all the information with which I can develop an informed opinion on what are not simplistic black-and-white geopolitical, economic, or social situations.

I don't know who is "really at fault" in the whole Israel/Palestine conflict. That's a region that has been in strife for thousands of years, and to blindly side either side is illogical in my opinion. Yet you speak with absolute confidence that it's all, "Israel's fault."

[Splits]

when i was trying to get my health insurance policy taken care of, NONE of the employees there spoke english as a first language, i had to sit there for an hour until an english speaking manager drove over

Something tells me you weren't trying to get insured in Chinatown (where nobody speaks English) or little Italy.

[spurraider21]

Something tells me you weren't trying to get insured in Chinatown (where nobody speaks English) or little Italy.

you are correct. it wasn't in a "little" anything. it was in the middle of the san fernando valley.

[Splits]

No you're not.

You're pretty much incapable of looking at anything reasonably and objectively. Whatever position is fashionable in leftist academia, is the side you'll invariably take. You'll probably blather something about me being a racist or nationalist, but I'm not so arrogant enough to think I have all the information with which I can develop an informed opinion on what are not simplistic black-and-white geopolitical, economic, or social situations.

I don't know who is "really at fault" in the whole Israel/Palestine conflict. That's a region that has been in strife for thousands of years, and to blindly side either side is illogical in my opinion. Yet you speak with absolute confidence that it's all, "Israel's fault."

Wrong. If the Arabs had the nukes and the Jews had the firecrackers, I'd take the exact same position and go buy a yarmulke

[Splits]

And for the record I have zero connection to "academia". haven't set foot on a campus in 20 years, work for an evil industry (big pharma)

[spurraider21]

Wrong. If the Arabs had the nukes and the Jews had the firecrackers, I'd take the exact same position and go buy a yarmulke

are the jews using nukes? i haven't been keeping up with that conflict that just seems to repeat itself every few years

[midnightpulp]

So "massive influx in 2014" has magically transformed to "massive influx in past 2 decades". Got it, but all else remains the same. Nice debate tactic

Wow, immigration has slightly declined. That must mean there's really not that many of them after all!

Fine, you win the semantic war. I specified 2014 to prevent you from talking about the distant past (since you love the false equivalency tactic), when you can say total open borders were a reasonable thing to do for a developing country.

Still, why is a massive influx of illegal immigrants over the past two decades a good thing?

See and this comes the part where you post an opinion from a progressive organization showing how it was a "good thing," to which I can respond with an article from a conservative organization showing it's not a good thing, and we play the link game all night.

[Splits]

Wow, immigration has slightly declined. That must mean there's really not that many of them after all!

Fine, you win the semantic war. I specified 2014 to prevent you from talking about the distant past (since you love the false equivalency tactic), when you can say total open borders were a reasonable thing to do for a developing country.

Still, why is a massive influx of illegal immigrants over the past two decades a good thing?

See and this comes the part where you post an opinion from a progressive organization showing how it was a "good thing," to which I can respond with an article from a conservative organization showing it's not a good thing, and we play the link game all night.

semantics. Your entire argument was based on some imaginary army of Mexicans flooding the border in 2014, overwhelming those patriotic militia men, taking over all social services, hospitals, schools!!! Oh wait, the population is declining? Hmm, let me find another argument.

[Splits]

are the jews using nukes? i haven't been keeping up with that conflict that just seems to repeat itself every few years

Cmon. Using nukes? Of course not. Having the most powerful military in the Middle East and using disproportionate force to deal with any perceived threat under the guise of stealing all the land between the Jordan river and the sea? Umm, yeah.

[midnightpulp]

Wrong. If the Arabs had the nukes and the Jews had the firecrackers, I'd take the exact same position and go buy a yarmulke

So you have nuke envy on behalf on the Arabs?

But I do agree Israel is acting paranoid at the moment, although I empathize with their paranoia since Arabs and Jews have blood feuded for 1400 years.

[spurraider21]

Cmon. Using nukes? Of course not. Having the most powerful military in the Middle East and using disproportionate force to deal with any perceived threat under the guise of stealing all the land between the Jordan river and the sea? Umm, yeah.

i agree with that. you brought nukes into the discussion so i inquired