Johnny Football Time Is Here

[FkLA]

Couldn't be bc it was his first two career starts against two teams still fighting for a playoff spot, while the other dude scrubbing it up had years and double digit career starts under his belt.

Nah its bc he's an automatic bust, obviously.

[spurraider21]

Couldn't be bc it was his first two career starts against two teams still fighting for a playoff spot, while the other dude scrubbing it up had years and double digit career starts under his belt.

Nah its bc he's an automatic bust, obviously.

Hoyer had four career starts prior to the season.

I'm not calling manziel a bust based on his limited action this year. I didn't have high hopes anyway and I just haven't seen anything to change that

[FkLA]

Hoyer had four career starts prior to the season.

I'm not calling manziel a bust based on his limited action this year. I didn't have high hopes anyway and I just haven't seen anything to change that

And multiple years in the league and double digit starts by the time he got pulled for scrubbing it up.

You posted a post where the guy is going at Football right after his two starts, Philo...

[Raven]

Guy is a re . Football has plenty of things going for him. That Cleveland offense was horrible before he got thrown in there, its actually the reason why he got thrown in there...and when he doesn't fix it in his first two career starts hes an automatic bust. Ok.

i don't know man, to me, when it concerns a qb, it is more important what he doesn't have going for him than what he does have (which in JFF's case, is being white ). An undersized qb with a weak arm a tendency to run and a bad work ethic cannot be an average qb in the nfl, not even in his dreams, no matter how many other things he has going for him.

[FkLA]

You continue to call his arm weak even though the large majority of people disagree. Even analysts or posters that think he won't succeed agree that arm strength isn't the problem. There's not much one can do when you are so blinded by your hate tbh.

[Raven]

You continue to call his arm weak even though the large majority of people disagree. Even analysts or posters that think he won't succeed agree that arm strength isn't the problem. There's not much one can do when you are so blinded by your hate tbh.

i don't know if i ever saw him throw a bullet tbh , but let's say he has an average arm, is that enough when he can't read defenses and can't seem to grasp a playbook? I'd like to know which of the traits he had before, you now found out he doesn't.

[unleashbaynes]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...more-seriously

im gonna try a lot harder next time guys i swear!
study film? throwing mechanics? footwork? staying in the pocket? the is all that man? just gimme a tall receiver to throw it up to every time!
wtf?? you're 300 lbs! you're not supposed to be as fast as me!

[FkLA]

i don't know if i ever saw him throw a bullet tbh , but let's say he has an average arm, is that enough when he can't read defenses and can't seem to grasp a playbook? I'd like to know which of the traits he had before, you now found out he doesn't.

Well the difference is I never claimed he didn't have faults. Reading defenses, being comfortable with a playbook and just play in general improves over time.

But in your mind a 22 year old is a finished product after two career starts.

[Raven]

Well the difference is I never claimed he didn't have faults. Reading defenses, being comfortable with a playbook and just play in general improves over time.

But in your mind a 22 year old is a finished product after two career starts.

that's not the point, for me drafting him in the 7th would have been fire worthy, that's not the issue here. What i'm trying to understand, is why did you think he has a chance to be good.

[FkLA]

that's not the point, for me drafting him in the 7th would have been fire worthy, that's not the issue here. What i'm trying to understand, is why did you think he has a chance to be good.

Of course you do. I've posted why I think he can be good plenty of times, and no six bad quarters hasn't changed my mind.

[spurraider21]

He can certainly improve with time (if he's committed to his craft and puts the time and work in. I just think he was a very overrated nfl prospect and he's done nothing besides validating that train of thought

[Raven]

Of course you do. I've posted why I think he can be good plenty of times, and no six bad quarters hasn't changed my mind.

so you agreed before that he had a bad work ethic?

[FkLA]

He can certainly improve with time (if he's committed to his craft and puts the time and work in. I just think he was a very overrated nfl prospect and he's done nothing besides validating that train of thought

lol outta here

He had a lot of attention surrounding him bc of who he is, but as an NFL prospect he was never considered some sure thing. He had plenty of detractors. No other QB in his class stood out and the QB position is always a hot commodity during drafts...so being in the mix with all of them really had nothing to do with him supposedly being overrated.

[FkLA]

so you agreed before that he had a bad work ethic?

Nah. Pettine and teammates said he'd been doing the right things when he was the back-up. His comments seem like people looking for to nitpick...saying he wants to work harder is not the same thing as saying he was lazy.

[spurraider21]

lol outta here

He had a lot of attention surrounding him bc of who he is, but as an NFL prospect he was never considered some sure thing. He had plenty of detractors. No other QB in his class stood out and the QB position is always a hot commodity during drafts...so being in the mix with all of them really had nothing to do with him supposedly being overrated.

Tebow was similar in that regard. Very flawed prospect (in different ways) who was drafted way too high because of college stats and celeb status hype. His supporters cited the "it factor" as a response to valid criticisms

[FkLA]

Jesus here we go. Just get it over with and bring up Vince Young too. Who gives a if their arm strength and release aren't on par with Football's.

Lets also just ignore that no QB in this past class stood out.

[spurraider21]

Jesus here we go. Just get it over with and bring up Vince Young too. Who gives a if their arm strength and release aren't on par with Football's.

Lets also just ignore that no QB in this past class stood out.

i didnt say they have the same flaws. in fact, if we're talking pure arm strength, vince young is better than johnny. But i specifically said they were flawed prospects in different ways. but yes, much like vince young (an obviously flawed prospect) and like Tim Tebow (a very obviously flawed prospect), Manziel was drafted way higher than he should have been because of his notoriety.

there were some very harsh manziel critics pre-draft... so dont act like he was universally loved or universally considered a first round caliber player

i still remember merril hoge predicted that if somebody takes manziel in the first round, there will be firings in that front office within a few years

[FkLA]

Not just different but completely unrelated. You don't compare guys whos biggest flaw was something as fundamental as their throwing motion to a guy like Football. Its beyond idiotic and its amazing that some of you still use those guys as legit comparisons.

And no he had a healthy amount of detractors. That was my point, high profile =/= rated higher than he should've been. What round do you suggest he should've gone in anyway? Considering how sought after QBs are and the fact that no other QB stood out I'm not sure how much lower you expected him to go. Nevermind the fact that by your logic the other first round QBs would fall under 'extremely overrated NFL prospects' category as well.

[spurraider21]

Not just different but completely unrelated. You don't compare guys whos biggest flaw was something as fundamental as their throwing motion to a guy like Football. Its beyond idiotic and its amazing that some of you still use those guys as legit comparisons.

you are completely missing the boat. i'm not comparing their flaws, and i've been very clear in that. heck, young and tebow were VERY different players... the comparison i'm making is that they were celeb status college players with the "it factor" which got them drafted in much higher positions than the tape should have dictated.

And no he had a healthy amount of detractors. That was my point, high profile =/= rated higher than he should've been. What round do you suggest he should've gone in anyway? Considering how sought after QBs are and the fact that no other QB stood out I'm not sure how much lower you expected him to go. Nevermind the fact that by your logic the other first round QBs would fall under 'extremely overrated NFL prospects' category as well.

i thought Bortles was drafted too high. i was fine with where Bridgewater and Carr were drafted (tbh i actually figured the raiders would need to trade back up into the first to take Carr). i had manziel behind carr, bridgewater, bortles, and mettenberger. i didnt want the raiders to draft him (except for one day where i was delusional and i soon after retracted that ) because i didn't think he had NFL quarterback written on him

[djohn2oo8]

lol Manziel. , like Vince, can't read a playbook

[FkLA]

you are completely missing the boat. i'm not comparing their flaws, and i've been very clear in that. heck, young and tebow were VERY different players... the comparison i'm making is that they were celeb status college players with the "it factor" which got them drafted in much higher positions than the tape should have dictated.

I knew what you were trying to say. Its re ed.

You can use the celebrity with those two guys bc they had fundamental flaws in their throwing motions and still got picked as high as they did. Football doesn't have that fundamental flaw. He actually has good tools to work with and his flaws are more fixable than their flaws ever were. Not sure why it's so hard for you to see the difference.

i thought Bortles was drafted too high. i was fine with where Bridgewater and Carr were drafted (tbh i actually figured the raiders would need to trade back up into the first to take Carr). i had manziel behind carr, bridgewater, bortles, and mettenberger. i didnt want the raiders to draft him (except for one day where i was delusional and i soon after retracted that ) because i didn't think he had NFL quarterback written on him

lol Mettenberger

Have any of those guys done anything? By yalls standard Im assuming a first round QB has to perform like rookie Andrew Luck or they end up confirming that they were 'massively overrated' NFL prospects.

[spurraider21]

I knew what you were trying to say. Its re ed.

You can use the celebrity with those two guys bc they had fundamental flaws in their throwing motions and still got picked as high as they did. Football doesn't have that fundamental flaw.

No. instead he has several other fundamental flaws

He actually has good tools to work with and his flaws are more fixable than their flaws ever were.

i disagree with most of this. i dont think he has good tools to work with. he's a scrambler who isn't as fast as most defensive ends. he has an average arm with mediocre, inconsistent accuracy. not to mention he seems to be completely inept when it comes to running a pro-style offense. you have mediocre football tools virtually no football IQ

Not sure why it's so hard for you to see the difference.

probably because i disagree with you fundamentally

lol Mettenberger

Have any of those guys done anything?

i dont care what they've done. i'm telling you how i felt about these guys at the time of the draft.

By yalls standard Im assuming a first round QB has to perform like rookie Andrew Luck or they end up confirming that they were 'massively overrated' NFL prospects.

no. now you are just making a strawman argument. i think carr and bridgewater have played damn well to justify their draft positions, and in fact have outperformed them. bortles and manziel have underachieved (manziel in his limited time).

i never set ridiculously high standards for what a QB needs to do in year 1, but there are NO standards by which manziel played well in his limited time.

[FkLA]

As if Tebow and Young weren't known as scramblers as well. They had all the flaws you mentioned+had ridiculous throwing motions+never did as much damage as Football did through the air even in college. Finding a balance, while not guaranteed, is much more fixable than having to fix fundamental things like a throwing motion or accuracy.

If you can't acknowledge something as simple as that there is really no reason to have a discussion with you tbh.

[Raven]

if anything, considering preseason, season and contest, imo the qb generation should be ranked like this:
Carr
Garoppolo
Bortles
Mettemberger
Manager
Thomas
Manziel

so i put manziel above savage and the cincinnati guy, both of which have not shown anything at all.

[Raven]

As if Tebow and Young weren't known as scramblers as well. They had all the flaws you mentioned+had ridiculous throwing motions+never did as much damage as Football did through the air even in college. Finding a balance, while not guaranteed, is much more fixable than having to fix fundamental things like a throwing motion or accuracy.

If you can't acknowledge something as simple as that there is really no reason to have a discussion with you tbh.

how can you call accurate someone who made a living out of throwing jump balls?