Stake you claim on White

[south side spur]

I don't know why. I said early on that KA had a ceiling, because of his clear lack of athleticism. I still think that's true, just because that is so important in the NBA now. But this kid seems to have a pretty good motor. , if you look at Kawhi's combine metrics, I think he only had a 26" no-step vertical? Look how far he has elevated his game since his rookie year. Look at how far Simmons elevated his game, after being nowhere.

Cagey NBA veterans are going to pick his pocket for a while. They are going to suck out charges on him, and make him look stupid. What he learns will make all the difference, and that's why the Spurs always look for smart, character guys. He's pretty articulate in an interview - that should be a clue.

My mistake. I should've said FLOOR, not ceiling as a back up at both guard spots. His ceiling? I mean, I AM a homer.

[GSH]

Old? I am always amazed at people's perception of age. It wasn't THAT long ago that the NBA banned players who were not old enough to have graduated from college.

The more I look at this guy, the more I see the elephant in the room.
He actually does have upside for only one reason -- he's an elite shooter.

It doesn't matter what we think. The fact is that most teams/scouts have a belief that guys who stay in college until they are seniors have topped out, and have no more upside. (And upside means that they are going to improve - not that they don't have skills.) They're all looking to hit home runs, and nearly all of them believe that home run level players don't stay in college until they are seniors. It's circular logic, and fortunately the Spurs don't think that way.

Fans read the comments, and act like it's a fact of life - but they don't have a damn clue WHY it's supposedly true. The FO guys know that 19 YO's are a bigger risk, but they tell themselves that they have so much "upside" to make up for it. It's swing for the fence mentality.

[SAGirl]

More importantly, that's the only reason this thread will exist. The insistence on people trying to pull up old quotes to laugh a people is by far the lamest aspects of this board (other than doing this but skipping the whole "evidence" thing).

I have to agree with you on that.
I prefer to hear guy's honests opinions based on facts at the time.. heck it's not like guys don't improve if they put in the work and have the ability in their first few years. We don't know and won't know if he will.
two things can happen:
1. he's already improved a ton getting from div. 3 to div. 1 and is tapped out... or he
2. he isn't tapped out.
we can't know that based on facts right now, but I still like to read what others think bc it's interesting... not with the intention of them coming back and making fun of everyone who compared him to Kyle if he flames out fast and furiously out of the league... or the other spectrum.. to have someone making of the comparison to Kyle if he turns out to be much better. lol

I don't know. haven't watched him at all. still interesting to see what others think... but to stake a claim right now, without even having seen him in summer league? bleh.... lets not stake a claim and admit we are all speculating.

by the way I am like the matrix old woman who told neo: "I love candy"
Sagirl loves the speculation.

[SAGirl]

I tend to agree. I think we just drafted a guy to replace both Mills and Forbes.

I think this too... maybe bc of his size, he can legit play the 2 in stretches. Those two ^ just too undersized in reality. Excited that he will have a niche to fill though.

[south side spur]

If you haven't yet, watch the full game vs UCLA. He definitely wasn't outclassed by Ball. I think the cynics are going to change their tune after the summer league...I'm thinking it might only take one game actually. Hopefully, we see a lot of Murray AND White together in the back court this summer.

[cjw]

It doesn't matter what we think. The fact is that most teams/scouts have a belief that guys who stay in college until they are seniors have topped out, and have no more upside. (And upside means that they are going to improve - not that they don't have skills.) They're all looking to hit home runs, and nearly all of them believe that home run level players don't stay in college until they are seniors. It's circular logic, and fortunately the Spurs don't think that way.

Fans read the comments, and act like it's a fact of life - but they don't have a damn clue WHY it's supposedly true. The FO guys know that 19 YO's are a bigger risk, but they tell themselves that they have so much "upside" to make up for it. It's swing for the fence mentality.

Perhaps it's Spurs finding an inefficiency. Scouts skew towards trying to unearth a gem vs. recommending a safe pick. They don't get rewarded if the safe pick turns out to be decent, but get destroyed if he busts. High upside guys busting can bust.

[SAGirl]

My motivation is actually to try to get guys like dabom and apolosic to commit so hopefully we won't get endless threads started by them about how they were the first people on earth to recognize guys like Kawhi's greatness.

Of course we won't here a peak out of them for awhile.

they indeed are the only ones who are that childish... dabom specially.

I do like to give credit to guys who are bold with their predictions in the Nostradamus spectrum bc I like speculation....

[SAGirl]

It's kind of a ridiculous premise. First of all, it's all guesswork at this point.

Second of all, unless he becomes a clear star in the league, nobody will agree on whether he worked out or not. Look at Fathead. People here can't even agree on whether he was a total bust, or a great success for a late pick. Both sides say, "I told you so"... at the same time.

He can't be a total bust when he was picked 30 and is going to start his 4th year in the league and has had positive impact in his team.

There are many who dislike him and will come here to voice disapproval, but one cannot change their perception. If you look at his draft class... he was among the top 10 guys there I think.. last time I looked (a few months ago...) so if guys expected a star they were unreasonable in their standards. He can't be a bust for where he was picked.

[GSH]

Watched his game against Oregon last night. Good game stat-wise, but the most impressive showing. Good shooting, decent passing. Issues with athleticism getting to the rim and converting it seemed all game long. He does play a lot like Anderson without the refusal to shoot open threes.

Hope Murray gets stronger.

I went looking for interviews. In one from early summer (I think) they asked him what he needed to work on, to try and make it in the NBA. The first thing he said was "my body". He knows that he'll have to be stronger than he is. That's true for nearly 100% of rookies, but most of them don't know it. Later, he repeated the fact that he had to work on his body and conditioning. That, to me, was a very good sign. It says he's probably already working on it. The ones who work hard on strength are way ahead of the game.

As for comparisons to Kyle? You can't learn tall - he and Kyle are worlds apart on that. And there's no way he's as slow as Kyle. I'm not saying that to bash Kyle, it's just a fact of life. His drills say he's got pretty good speed and agility, and decent springs. That's also a good start.

Some of the scouting reports mentioned him looking good "when he is engaged". That's talking about a guy who loses focus, or takes plays off. (Or games.) That is going to be a make-or-break factor. I'm sure he has an idea how much will be expected on the Spurs roster. If he doesn't, he will. If he buys in, and commits. Another step in the right direction.

If he's smart, he'll be in the gym with Kawhi as early as they will allow, and trying to match Kawhi's gym time minute for minute. That will have more impact on his ability to excel than most anything else.

[SAGirl]

I see him as a back up PG at the very best. He'll never be a good solid starter in this league imo. A solid shooter/back up lead guard off the bench is what I'm expecting at the very best.

that's good enough for 29. I wouldn't consider him a bust if that is all he can do, like cojo who is a solid backup guard.

[SAGirl]

I'm not sure about that. Good fundamentals in BBall is like knowing truth in life man, your going to be successful imo. And it's because he can play the pick and roll so effectively. I hate to bring my sorry self into the equation as a base for defense, but here we go. I'm not athletic or have any physical tools but I can shoot the three. I'm often guarded by the other teams best defender. I know the only way i can get past him realistically is a pick and roll. So if they don't switch I go around the screen and hit the open man. If my man goes under I shoot the three, and if they do switch I drive and kick or shoot the pull up, all things he shows he can do. My point is that even though I'm not an NBA player basketball is basketball. It's not a complicated game. I'm sure Pop has said something to the effect, if I remember correctly. If he didn't play the pick like another player I thought of when i thought of him, Marco Bellineli, then I'd agree he'd be in trouble and relegated to spot ups, catch and shoot opportunities and cuts, all of which he can do any ways, but the fact is he can pass out the pick too so that's where his ceiling gets higher and he has a shot as a playmaker. So his ceiling is like a lite CJ McCollum or a floor of like Marco Belinelli imo.

We'll see how he does in Summer League.

this was informative.
thanks for sharing raybies.

[SAGirl]

Jordan Bell will be the Warriors back up 5 next yr and their starting center by 18/19. Hes the kind of player that will be in the game late in 4th quarters because of how hes able to defend.

Bell was the type of defensive impact player Spurs desperately needed.

I thought of you when I saw the pick (though I didn't prepare for this draft... pick was at risk to be stashed.. and I was generally less interested than usual in these things). then I saw who it went to and I knew you'd be double the furious...

[tonight...you]

I have to agree with you on that.
I prefer to hear guy's honests opinions based on facts at the time.. heck it's not like guys don't improve if they put in the work and have the ability in their first few years. We don't know and won't know if he will.
two things can happen:
1. he's already improved a ton getting from div. 3 to div. 1 and is tapped out... or he
2. he isn't tapped out.
we can't know that based on facts right now, but I still like to read what others think bc it's interesting... not with the intention of them coming back and making fun of everyone who compared him to Kyle if he flames out fast and furiously out of the league... or the other spectrum.. to have someone making of the comparison to Kyle if he turns out to be much better. lol

I don't know. haven't watched him at all. still interesting to see what others think... but to stake a claim right now, without even having seen him in summer league? bleh.... lets not stake a claim and admit we are all speculating.

by the way I am like the matrix old woman who told neo: "I love candy"
Sagirl loves the speculation.

I SAID: me rikey.

[picnroll]

It doesn't matter what we think. The fact is that most teams/scouts have a belief that guys who stay in college until they are seniors have topped out, and have no more upside. (And upside means that they are going to improve - not that they don't have skills.) They're all looking to hit home runs, and nearly all of them believe that home run level players don't stay in college until they are seniors. It's circular logic, and fortunately the Spurs don't think that way.

Fans read the comments, and act like it's a fact of life - but they don't have a damn clue WHY it's supposedly true. The FO guys know that 19 YO's are a bigger risk, but they tell themselves that they have so much "upside" to make up for it. It's swing for the fence mentality.

Wait until Silver lowers the age requirement for draft eligibility even further. Your going to see some incredible train wreck draft picks.

In terms of tap out upside at 22. Ridiculous. Use to be you couldn't even enter the draft until 4 years of college or equivalent age. ABA compe ion changed that. These guts coming out of college then we're not fully baked except the rare exceptions like Alcindor, Magic, Bird and Walton but even they improved.

[SAGirl]

I SAID: me rikey.

fair enough.

[TheDoctor]

this is very weird lol creepy?

Don't shoot the messenger.

[GSH]

Wait until Silver lowers the age requirement for draft eligibility even further. Your going to see some incredible train wreck draft picks.

In terms of tap out upside at 22. Ridiculous. Use to be you couldn't even enter the draft until 4 years of college or equivalent age. ABA compe ion changed that. These guts coming out of college then we're not fully baked except the rare exceptions like Alcindor, Magic, Bird and Walton but even they improved.

The reason they put those noisy trays on slot machines is that people remember the payoffs, and forget about all the losses. Yeah, if they lower the age, there will be more draft busts.

, Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for four years. Imagine saying that his value was limited because he was old and didn't have any upside.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Old? I am always amazed at people's perception of age. It wasn't THAT long ago that the NBA banned players who were not old enough to have graduated from college. Drafting college seniors was the norm. Nowadays Sophmores are too old. So everybod thinks NBA teams need to draft these freshmen who barely know the game; then the same people complain about the quality of play in the league. You can't have it both ways. If you draft raw freshmen and have to coach them on fundamentals as college coaches formerly did while throwing them into the NBA fray against men like Kawhi or LeBron, then it will take most of those guys a few years to perform at a professional level - if they ever do. Ageism also seems like a strange prejudice in the modern NBA when it seems like players are generally enjoying longer careers - especially with the Spurs.

Bingo!

[SAGirl]

The reason they put those noisy trays on slot machines is that people remember the payoffs, and forget about all the losses. Yeah, if they lower the age, there will be more draft busts.

, Tim Duncan stayed at Wake for four years. Imagine saying that his value was limited because he was old and didn't have any upside.

In fairness to him.. he's kind of the exception... I think all these things with age is really when you are looking at potential stars really.. in the world of roleplayers I think it's tougher to gauge even who will bust in the roleplayer spectrum or not. So much goes into it, as you mention, work ethic is a big part, mental for ude, perseverence bc guys will undoubtedly fail and get benched etc.

Wasn't it common knowledge Tim would have already been the 1st pick if he came out his sop re year (could be wrong).

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Who?

[GSH]

In fairness to him.. he's kind of the exception... I think all these things with age is really when you are looking at potential stars really.. in the world of roleplayers I think it's tougher to gauge even who will bust in the roleplayer spectrum or not. So much goes into it, as you mention, work ethic is a big part, mental for ude, perseverence bc guys will undoubtedly fail and get benched etc.

Wasn't it common knowledge Tim would have already been the 1st pick if he came out his sop re year (could be wrong).

How about Draymond, for starters? Too old and no upside?

Jimmy Butler?

[weebo]

JAMES WHITE!...oh wait

[sasaint]

I responded to someone else about this issue.
I think its easier when guys are still learning how to play to evaluate them at the same age range. It may not tell me much about the NBA bc I am not a scout but stats alone don't tell me much in an NBA context when taking account age, bc guys who work on their games are indeed expected to get better. so at 23 he's already been playing longer and is more mature than Dijon who played 1 season in college and scored 15 per game for example his rook year. I would expect at 23 Dijon to have added to his game, have filled out his body etc... it doesn't tell me if he will, it doesn't tell me if he will improve etc... but it's not the same for me to look and evaluate Dijon at 20 and White at 23 by stats alone (its a hypothetical bc I didn't watch him play..) Mkny was coming at me with stats to convince me he'd be good and just on stats I can't. I have to account for how much more mature he is supposed to be than others he's competing against in his league.

and again.. maybe I am in deep water bc I know nothing else about him.

Yeah I was coming at you from a general Ageism stance. The problem with the laws of the basketball universe today is that college coaches don't really have the time (or inclination? - okay, I won't go there) to coach guys up to the same level of fundamental soundness that the NBA expected in days of yore. NBA coaches also lack the time to really coach guys on fundamentals due to the rigors of the NBA schedule. So, it takes most of those freshmen coming into the NBA about 2-3 more years to really get to a point where they are strong contributors - almost the same length of time they would have spent in college. So, the players will receive compensation, which they will not receive in college, but the burden of player development falls more on pro coaches. They have very expensive on-the-job trainees, many of whom will wash out. And are most pro coaches really capable of teaching basketball fundamentals - player development? You think Pringles would be a good guy to teach good basketball skills?

[objective]

I went looking for interviews. In one from early summer (I think) they asked him what he needed to work on, to try and make it in the NBA. The first thing he said was "my body". He knows that he'll have to be stronger than he is. That's true for nearly 100% of rookies, but most of them don't know it. Later, he repeated the fact that he had to work on his body and conditioning. That, to me, was a very good sign. It says he's probably already working on it. The ones who work hard on strength are way ahead of the game.

As for comparisons to Kyle? You can't learn tall - he and Kyle are worlds apart on that. And there's no way he's as slow as Kyle. I'm not saying that to bash Kyle, it's just a fact of life. His drills say he's got pretty good speed and agility, and decent springs. That's also a good start.

Some of the scouting reports mentioned him looking good "when he is engaged". That's talking about a guy who loses focus, or takes plays off. (Or games.) That is going to be a make-or-break factor. I'm sure he has an idea how much will be expected on the Spurs roster. If he doesn't, he will. If he buys in, and commits. Another step in the right direction.

If he's smart, he'll be in the gym with Kawhi as early as they will allow, and trying to match Kawhi's gym time minute for minute. That will have more impact on his ability to excel than most anything else.

My comparison to Kyle was based on watching a game, not highlights. Just one game for now, I'll watch more.

But when he was handling in the pick and roll, I saw a strong resemblance to Anderson. Patient, under control, measured ... Not too much burst.

Just off that one game, I would say his change of speeds was from average to slow, whereas Kyle shifts speeds from slow to slower to glacial to petrifaction.

[SAGirl]

How about Draymond, for starters? Too old and no upside?

Jimmy Butler?

lol good points