Robert Horry Is At It Again (Dream Is Better Than TD)

[TD 21]

Career stats isn't really accounting for peak vs peak. Hakeems scoring volume was higher on similar efficiency is all I was saying. Comparing both to David is even more interesting imo, DRob's 93-96 is a crazy peak...sucks it resulted in some playoff flameouts.

Fair enough.

Robinson's metrics are insane, but aided by entering late and exiting early and for all his efficiency + volume (a lot of it was FTr), his jump shooting + dribble drive style wasn't conducive to being the hub of a championship offense the way Olajuwon's and Duncan's more or O'Neal's exclusive back to the basket style was.

[keeferob25]

I don't think its controversial to acknowledge that Hakeem had a slightly better peak than Duncan (Hakeem 92-96 vs Duncan 01-05). Their defense was neck and neck but Hakeem just put the ball in the hoop more than Tim. Better career is TD quite easily, led his team to championships with 3 distinctly different versions of the Spurs and for a player who didn't care about stats he sure put up a lot of them.

Respectfully, this take is simply reflective of what we've already began seeing of Duncan's career/peak being shat on while others' careers and peaks get romanticized by the media which has too long been the case for Dream especially. This take is very representative of a "casual" take that the media has heavily influenced by again continually romanticizing Dream as the lovable foreigner with an unguardable mythical set of moves that catapulted him to dominate a single center (who happened to win MVP that year) for a series and somehow that is reflective of his ENTIRE career. That is essentially Dream's legend. This is not to say he wasn't an all-time great talent and player - but considering he has significantly less accolades overall than say a Duncan - he sure gets brought up as if ONLY cir stance is the reason and not that Duncan simply was the better player for BOTH peak and career.


But what the media is really saying to you is "hey take our word for it...this guy had one of THE best peaks of all time...but please don't actually look deeper into it" and here's why:


Let's take the windows you provided to represent Dream's and Duncan's peak:


Net Differential Between OFF RTG and DEF RTG (Reg Season|Playoff):


Dream: +12 | +7
Duncan: +19 | +15 (lol more than DOUBLE Hakeem's)


VORP:


Dream: 25.3 | 6.2
Duncan: 27.8 | 6.8


** ulative stat with Dream playing 8 more reg season games during this period and still has less
**Duncan played 66 playoff games to Dream's 65 so that part is minor


Box +/-:


Dream: 6.2 | 6.9
Duncan: 7.8 | 8.1


Def Box +/-:


Dream: 2.9 | 3.3
Duncan: 2.7 | 3.1


Off Box +/-:


Dream: 3.3 | 3.6
Duncan: 5.1 | 5.0


fairly wide margins wouldn't you say for supposedly not being in Dream's offensive class


WS:


Dream: 50.6 | 10.0
Duncan: 58.6 | 12.9


**Again Dream played 8 more reg season games so gap would essentially be wider and Duncan trumped him in BOTH Off WS and Def WS playing less games lol
**Peak single season WS for a le run during this period was Dream (4.3) and Duncan (5.9) - with Duncan's 5.9 being the HIGHEST WS TOTAL FOR A LE RUN IN NBA HISTORY!!!!!


PER:


Dream: 26.0 | 26.3
Duncan: 27.0 | 27.1


Oh and do I need to remind you that Dream was able to avoid facing that era's dynasty (Bulls) while Duncan had to go through a historical dynasty comprised of two top tier HOFs (Lakers) at their peak and also a Detroit team tougher than ANY team Dream faced during that time.

So stats certainly bear out that Duncan's peak was actually higher by most measurable advanced stats but of course that doesn't fit the media (or league) narrative because it involves boring ol Duncan. Trust me - he'll continue to get on as time quickly passes. He's always been an easy pass-over.

[dn0774]

Respectfully, this take is simply reflective of what we've already began seeing of Duncan's career/peak being shat on while others' careers and peaks get romanticized by the media which has too long been the case for Dream especially. This take is very representative of a "casual" take that the media has heavily influenced by again continually romanticizing Dream as the lovable foreigner with an unguardable mythical set of moves that catapulted him to dominate a single center (who happened to win MVP that year) for a series and somehow that is reflective of his ENTIRE career. That is essentially Dream's legend. This is not to say he wasn't an all-time great talent and player - but considering he has significantly less accolades overall than say a Duncan - he sure gets brought up as if ONLY cir stance is the reason and not that Duncan simply was the better player for BOTH peak and career.

Awesome post dude, definitely opened my eyes on some stuff, appreciate the numbers you pulled. One thing I will say is I am of the opinion that comparing players from different eras using exclusively modern advanced stats can occasionally be slightly...misleading perhaps?

When talking peaks I admit I put a lot of weight on extended playoff runs (as many do) and Hakeem in 94 and 95 played 45 playoff games combined and went nuts offensively in a way we never saw Duncan do. 45 games is not exactly a small sample, especially considering that's the most compe ive basketball that one can play in. Now, Hakeem's usage/fga's took a big jump to allow for that, and my opinion is Duncan could've done similar if he commanded that kind of usage as well but he didn't so we never got to see it.

There were some pace differences between those time frames as well that favored Hakeem in terms of raw stats, but not enough to account for the vast scoring volume difference between the 2. Averaging 29 and 33 ppg in back to back championship playoff runs just carries a lot of weight and admittedly results in some revisionist history regarding the rest of his career to me. I'm old enough to remember when he was Akeem, and he was a bit of a punk. Duncan is my favorite player ever, i'm an easy mark to be convinced of his greatness lol.

Any chance you could show some stats from KG's peak compared to Duncan? I'd call his peak 02-06 probably.

[Thomas82]

Let's just forget about Hakeem not winning a playoff series for 5 years during his prime.

Or how about when The Admiral held him to 6 points ina game one year?

[bigfan]

I remember being there one night watching Artis school his young azz.

[KobesAchilles]

I think what separates the two is that Duncan went through the Shaq and Kobe dynasty twice and rang while Hakeem had to wait for Jordan’s dynasty to end. Also Duncan being a consummate professional while Akeem was a diva also separates the two.

You look at Hakeem and he went through Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, and Robinson to ring. Duncan went through Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, KG, Dirk, and KD. And they both won a le without having another all star on the team or even a real second option. Hakeem’s defense was better than Tim’s. And his offense was also better than Tim’s. But Duncan just knew how to win, how to control a game, and when to turn it on better than Hakeem did.

[exstatic]

I think what separates the two is that Duncan went through the Shaq and Kobe dynasty twice and rang while Hakeem had to wait for Jordan’s dynasty to end. Also Duncan being a consummate professional while Akeem was a diva also separates the two.

You look at Hakeem and he went through Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, and Robinson to ring. Duncan went through Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, KG, Dirk, and KD. And they both won a le without having another all star on the team or even a real second option. Hakeem’s defense was better than Tim’s. And his offense was also better than Tim’s. But Duncan just knew how to win, how to control a game, and when to turn it on better than Hakeem did.

Akeem - 9 All D teams
Tim - 15 All D teams

Tim was All D his rookie year, and in his 18th season. Before you say DPOY, I don’t think anyone outside of the media would argue that Tim wasn’t ed over multiple times on that front, especially the Camby year.

[KobesAchilles]

Akeem - 9 All D teams
Tim - 15 All D teams

Tim was All D his rookie year, and in his 18th season. Before you say DPOY, I don’t think anyone outside of the media would argue that Tim wasn’t ed over multiple times on that front, especially the Camby year.

Hakeem has more blocks and steals than Duncan. He also averaged more rebounds per game than Duncan. And to bring up Duncan being snubbed and not Hakeem is disingenuous to me. Yes Hakeem won the award twice but he was robbed 3 more times by my count. Look Duncan was a great defender but the DPOY award was renamed after one player and it isn’t Duncan…

[TD 21]

Hakeem has more blocks and steals than Duncan. He also averaged more rebounds per game than Duncan. And to bring up Duncan being snubbed and not Hakeem is disingenuous to me. Yes Hakeem won the award twice but he was robbed 3 more times by my count. Look Duncan was a great defender but the DPOY award was renamed after one player and it isn’t Duncan…

I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but some of you really need to learn how to interpret stats instead of just spouting counting ones without context like it's '95.

Olajuwon's career was basically in the infancy of the 3, which meant the game was played mostly in confined spaces, which naturally led to more blocks (notice they've dropped with the proliferation of the 3). It's also well known that the Rockets, like the Jazz with Stockton's assists, intentionally fudged a lot of them.

He was a slightly better shot blocker than Duncan (5.4% to 4.6%), but the latter was the superior rebounder (18.4% to 17.2%).

Who cares who they arbitrarily named an award after? Again, that's about perception. If Duncan played in the analytics era, he'd more than likely have multiple. If you really want to read into it though, then Ben Wallace, Howard and Gobert won the most, so I guess that makes them the three GOATs defensively.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but some of you really need to learn how to interpret stats instead of just spouting counting ones without context like it's '95.

Olajuwon's career was basically in the infancy of the 3, which meant the game was played mostly in confined spaces, which naturally led to more blocks. It's also well know that the Rockets, like the Jazz with Stockton's assists, intentionally fudged a lot of them.

He was a slightly better shot blocker than Duncan (5.4% to 4.6%), but the latter was the superior rebounder (18.4% to 17.2%).

Who cares who they arbitrarily named an award after? Again, that's about perception. If Duncan played in the analytics era, he'd more than likely have multiple. If you really want to read into it though, then Ben Wallace, Howard and Gobert won the most.

I mean they played against each other. Duncan came into the 90s. It’s not as if he was a 2015 player from the start. You don’t sound like a snob. You just sound like one of those people who don’t know how to interpret stats. Duncan’s first 4 years in the league teams were averaging less 3 FGAs per game than the previous 3 years before Duncan was even in the league. And for almost all of his prime teams averaged in the teens with 3pt FGAs per game. Yes I know that in the 80s teams didn’t focus on the 3 point shot but really Hakeem averaged a ton of blocks in the same era that Duncan played in. Also every ing team fudges their stats. I get tired of that like the Spurs were somehow the only honest team and didn’t fudge assists and blocks. Yes they did.

I mean look at the you say to discredit an all time great. I say Duncan is a great defender. You say Hakeem is overrated and his blocks don’t even count. That’s not a snob. That’s just a hater. If Hakeem played in any era he would have DPOY awards. He has 2 and Duncan has none. Look nobody is saying that is the end all be all. But basically your counterpoints are to lesser Hakeem’s achievements and raise Duncan’s. I can’t take you seriously

[SpursBills]

All I know is, for my all-time starting 5 that would work well as a team, I'm probably taking Duncan over Hakeem although it'd be fairly close.

'18 Lebron-'16 Curry-'92 Jordan-***-'02 Duncan

With *** either '85 Bird or '04 KG, depending on whether I want offense or defense

[exstatic]

I mean they played against each other. Duncan came into the 90s. It’s not as if he was a 2015 player from the start. You don’t sound like a snob. You just sound like one of those people who don’t know how to interpret stats. Duncan’s first 4 years in the league teams were averaging less 3 FGAs per game than the previous 3 years before Duncan was even in the league. And for almost all of his prime teams averaged in the teens with 3pt FGAs per game. Yes I know that in the 80s teams didn’t focus on the 3 point shot but really Hakeem averaged a ton of blocks in the same era that Duncan played in. Also every ing team fudges their stats. I get tired of that like the Spurs were somehow the only honest team and didn’t fudge assists and blocks. Yes they did.

I mean look at the you say to discredit an all time great. I say Duncan is a great defender. You say Hakeem is overrated and his blocks don’t even count. That’s not a snob. That’s just a hater. If Hakeem played in any era he would have DPOY awards. He has 2 and Duncan has none. Look nobody is saying that is the end all be all. But basically your counterpoints are to lesser Hakeem’s achievements and raise Duncan’s. I can’t take you seriously

Hakeem played 17 years. Duncan played 19 years. They only overlapped 6 years in a 30 year span, so they really did play in 2 eras.

I’m not sure why you think posters on a Spurs board are going to rally to your Hakeem flag.

[KobesAchilles]

Hakeem played 17 years. Duncan played 19 years. They only overlapped 6 years in a 30 year span, so they really did play in 2 eras.

I’m not sure why you think posters on a Spurs board are going to rally to your Hakeem flag.

I’m not saying they have to agree with me. For instance, I did like your response to my initial post. However, you don’t have to on a player just to prop up Duncan. Personally I believe that at their peaks Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player. However to me, Duncan is the only player I know of that was 100% committed to winning. I’ve never seen a player as committed to winning as Duncan. And to me that drive and discipline to do what is needed to win makes him a better player than Hakeem. That was my overall point to my post.

[dbestpro]

Hakeem was better than Robinson but not better than TD. Artis Gilmore is a guy who never gets mentioned because he started in the ABA. He was not better than these three, but he was a beast in the 1970s and 80s. Swen Nater deserves honorable mention as he is the only player to lead in rebounding in the NBA and ABA. His best season was with the Spurs in the ABA.