omg bruce bowen just owned dwayne wade

[duncan2k5]

who's bruce Bowen? sounds like this Bruce character sucks. is he the guy that let melo, ray ray, shawn frickin marion and rip hamilton go off on him in last year's playoffs? im sure i saw him guarding billups in game 7 too. damn he got his ass lit up. trade that b*tch for smush parker...HE GETS STEALS!!!

[5ToolMan]

Wrong answer. Of course Parker needs screens to get open. The Spurs even run the 4 down the middle after COP to give Tony space. It's part of basketball. Quit posing. It doesn't fit you. Back to the shallow pool.

I hate to inform you, but his post shows a better knowledge of the game than yours, at least on this one.

An effective offensive team player can always get away from a single defender one on one. If you are going to contend Tony needs screens to get open, please name one defender who you think can stay with him one on one, and I am sure someone can get you scores of tape to show you are mistaken.

A primary reason players don't only use one on one skill to beat players off the dribble, is because the defensive support is much better position to help. His statement, that the pick-n-roll is to create mismatches where the team with the ball can build an even bigger advantage, is right on.

Now, let him back into the big pool.

[Solid D]

I hate to inform you, but his post shows a better knowledge of the game than yours, at least on this one.

An effective offensive team player can always get away from a single defender one on one. If you are going to contend Tony needs screens to get open, please name one defender who you think can stay with him one on one, and I am sure someone can get you scores of tape to show you are mistaken.

A primary reason players don't only use one on one skill to beat players off the dribble, is because the defensive support is much better position to help. His statement, that the pick-n-roll is to create mismatches where the team with the ball can build an even bigger advantage, is right on.

Now, let him back into the big pool.

I disagree. Basketball is a game based on getting good shot opportunities. Screens are a vital part of the game. Every player needs screens to get better space to shoot, unless players are sagging off them and already giving them space. It's just basketball.

Every scorer needs screens. Slater Martin needed screens. Bob Cousy needed screens, Bob Pe , Dave Bing, Lou Hudson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordon, Reggie Miller, Tony Parker, etc. Down screens, flare screens, back screens, screens and re-screens, ball screens, dribble hand-offs.

Off those blocks you have movement by the screener. Rolls, pops, pin-down and post, etc. Those movements can create mismatches, if a switch occurs. What if a switch doesn't occur? The screen or movement off that screen can still get a player extra space. You don't run screen actions just to get mismatches. You run them to get a better shot opportunity.

Think about it 5Tool.

Bowen defends Wade very well but he needed help. Wade can score but he needed help with screens to get space to score. TP or Wade or any player needs space for better shot opportunities, particularly when trapped or doubled. Even the greatest can't get any shot they want, any time they want.

[5ToolMan]

I disagree. Basketball is a game based on getting good shot opportunities. Screens are a vital part of the game. Every player needs screens to get better space to shoot, unless players are sagging off them and already giving them space. It's just basketball.

Every scorer needs screens. Slater Martin needed screens. Bob Cousy needed screens, Bob Pe , Dave Bing, Lou Hudson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordon, Reggie Miller, Tony Parker, etc. Down screens, flare screens, back screens, screens and re-screens, ball screens, dribble hand-offs.

Off those blocks you have movement by the screener. Rolls, pops, pin-down and post, etc. Those movements can create mismatches, if a switch occurs. What if a switch doesn't occur? The screen or movement off that screen can still get a player extra space. You don't run screen actions just to get mismatches. You run them to get a better shot opportunity.

Think about it 5Tool.

Bowen defends Wade very well but he needed help. Wade can score but he needed help with screens to get space to score. TP or Wade or any player needs space for better shot opportunities, particularly when trapped or doubled. Even the greatest can't get any shot they want, any time they want.

I agree with most of what you are saying in this post. And I agree, screens and pick-n-rolls are essential to give offensive advantage in this team game.

My only exception to what was said earlier, would be emphisize my view that a great offensive player does not need a screen to get open in a one on one setting. Without defensive support, the great one on one offensive player will leave the great one on one defender in the dust, many more times than not.

[implacable44]

You have it on reverse. You said he couldn't guard any elite wing this year, he proceeded to lock up Kobe, LeBron, Pierce, TMac and Dirk.
It is just sad that a person got owned for saying that Bruce Bowen cannot stop an elite wing this year, and come back every single time Bowen didn't completely stop another player when nobody ever said that Bowen can stop every single elite player every single game just to prove that his/her original assessment was correct.
The sad part does not come in the lack of ability to admit him/herself being wrong in the first place, it comes in the part where a person does not have any ability to understand and remember what s/he was originally arguing about.
But if putting down a Spurs player for his lack of ability to stop an opposing player makes you happy because it shows that Bowen cannot shut down every single person in the league, then go ahead, it still doesn't change the fact that he is one of the leading candidates for DPoY, and the Spurs are having a very good record despite not playing to their potential yet.

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league

[Useruser666]

Three true facts:

Bruce makes it difficult for players to score points.

Fire is hot.

Water is wet.

[implacable44]

Oh my goodness, this is the most idiotic thing I have heard about. Do you know why it's called the pick and roll? It's because the person who sets the pick rolls to the basket, opening up MORE options than you just described. True, both of what you said could take place after the pick, but the one who sets the pick can also roll to the basket if both defenders follow the ball handler, a pass would made to the one setting the pick rolling to the basket, resulting in an easy layup. The one who sets the pick can also pop out, and get a wide open jumper.
But then of course, if you were coaching you would ask both defenders to "go with the pick", who, might I remind you, is NOT the one with the ball. I mean, let me get my head around this. Say Player B sets a pick for Player A, player A has the ball, now I am on defense, and when I see Player B setting the pick, I just think to myself. "Gee, Player B doesn't have the ball, let's go guard him"
And to have you critique other people's basketball knowledge on this? This is just absolutely ridiculously funny.
BTW, some suggestions on your comebacks. Pick on my grammar and spelling, go ahead, English isn't even my first language.
Before then, read up
http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball...tm#PLAY%20%233

hey wang chung - we will make this post the most idiotic thing you have ever heard okay - because I said and I will break it down for you piece by piece :
Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick ( THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL _ IT MIGHT BE A RESULT BUT NOT THE PURPOSE -- THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE POST THAT PROMPTED MY REPLY-- - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage ( THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL) - several options ( NOTE ___SEVERAL OPTIONS- both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper ( HAPPENS ALL THE TIME _ AND DEPENDING ON THE GUARD WITH THE BALL MORE OFTEN) - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j ( ANOTHER OPTION) - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper ( ANOTHER OPTION CREATED BY THE PICK AND ROLL). -- IN EFFECT THE PICK AND ROLL WHICH WORKED WONDERS FOR STOCKTON MALONE AS WELL AS NASH AND AMARE CREATES OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE IT FORCES THE DEFENSE TO MAKE A DECISION AND REACT JUST LIKE I SAID WANGCHUNG

[implacable44]

Implacable's not even arguing anymore, he's throwing out insults. . . I think it's pretty clear who's lost

insults are constantly thrown out on this board - as is vulgar language -- by everyone - look at chumpstump - I mean the only reasonable conclusion I have come to for him calling me a douch is because I am constantly cleaning out his moms plumbing with my tools.

[ambchang]

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league

so what are you complaining about when Dwayne Wade shot 8-20 and scored 31 points on the Spurs on a loss? The whole Heat offense concentrated on getting Wade shots over Bowen, and made the rest of the team stand around and watch.

[implacable44]

so what are you complaining about when Dwayne Wade shot 8-20 and scored 31 points on the Spurs on a loss? The whole Heat offense concentrated on getting Wade shots over Bowen, and made the rest of the team stand around and watch.

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?

[cheguevara]

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?

now he's using Word thesaurus on his posts

[ambchang]

hey wang chung - we will make this post the most idiotic thing you have ever heard okay - because I said and I will break it down for you piece by piece :
Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick ( THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL _ IT MIGHT BE A RESULT BUT NOT THE PURPOSE -- THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE POST THAT PROMPTED MY REPLY-- - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage ( THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL) - several options ( NOTE ___SEVERAL OPTIONS- both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper ( HAPPENS ALL THE TIME _ AND DEPENDING ON THE GUARD WITH THE BALL MORE OFTEN) - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j ( ANOTHER OPTION) - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper ( ANOTHER OPTION CREATED BY THE PICK AND ROLL). -- IN EFFECT THE PICK AND ROLL WHICH WORKED WONDERS FOR STOCKTON MALONE AS WELL AS NASH AND AMARE CREATES OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE IT FORCES THE DEFENSE TO MAKE A DECISION AND REACT JUST LIKE I SAID WANGCHUNG

Yeah, the purpose is to gain an offensive advantage, well duh! What would you expect? The offensive team runs a play so that the defense can gain an advantage? Every single offensive set is ran to force the defense make a decision and have the offense gain an advantage. But the purpose of the pick and roll is NOT to not pass the ball to the player setting the pick. That is one of the MAIN options of the play.
I can't even believe I am arguing with a person of self-proclaimed high basketball IQ about whether pick-and-rolls were set so that the purpose is NOT to pass the ball to the one setting the pick. And no, don't go on and change the purpose now and say that it is about creating offensive advantage, because like I said, every single offensive set is done for that purpose.
And I am glad you brought up Nash and Stoudemire, another example of getting the ball to the one setting the pick.
The term pick-and-roll probably cued you in that the one setting the pick will roll to the basket for an easy deuce, but then again, your high basketball IQ is revolutionizing the game of basketball.

[ambchang]

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?

Huh? void of integrity and of malicious intent? what do you think my purpose of the post was? did it somehow lead to some catastrophic events?
perhaps you should look at your original intent of THIS post when you talked about how Bowen couldn't contain Wade in a game in which the Spurs destroyed the Heat.

[FromWayDowntown]

Again, however, Miami wasn't running pick and roll plays on Wednesday night. They were setting screens for Wade, hoping to give Wade an advantage against Bowen. I don't see why all the discussion of screen/roll when Miami basically wasn't running screen/roll at all.

Not every screen is intended to create a pick and roll situation.

[ambchang]

Again, however, Miami wasn't running pick and roll plays on Wednesday night. They were setting screens for Wade, hoping to give Wade an advantage against Bowen. I don't see why all the discussion of screen/roll when Miami basically wasn't running screen/roll at all.

Not every screen is intended to create a pick and roll situation.

True, but then the guy was saying another person was an idiot because the purpose of the pick-and-roll is not to get the ball to the one setting the pick. I just can't let that one fly.
and now that you mentioned it, Mr. High-basketball-IQ probably mixed up setting a screen with pick and rolls.

[FromWayDowntown]

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league

Which was obviously the point of your original lament in October/November that the Spurs didn't move Bruce for Ray Allen and the inimitable Jerome James.

You said back then that the Spurs would be fine defensively with Allen, because Manu was a as good a defender, if not better than Bowen. Would it be your argument that Manu would have done a better job on Wade or Kobe or McGrady this season than Bowen has? If not, then you've completely undermined your own point. If that would be your argument, I'm still hard pressed to buy it, particularly given Manu's injuries and Bowen's successes.

And, oh yeah, I'm overwhelmed by Jerome James' stellar play so far -- Jerome James makes Rasho Nesterovic look like a fusion of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. I'm bent the Spurs didn't give that dude a huge contract.

[Solid D]

and then there is the Aggie pick 'n roll...which incorporates the index finger and thumb.

(sorry AHF, just playin')

[Marcus Bryant]

How did this thread last for 5 pages? What is happening to this forum?

PS...StD, I saw that.

[FromWayDowntown]

True, but then the guy was saying another person was an idiot because the purpose of the pick-and-roll is not to get the ball to the one setting the pick. I just can't let that one fly.
and now that you mentioned it, Mr. High-basketball-IQ probably mixed up setting a screen with pick and rolls.

Implacable is wrong about a lot of things, but he's right that screen-roll is designed to create mismatches and confusion. Not every screen-roll is intended to get the ball back to the screener. I mean, if the defense decides to double the screener or to play off of the ball-handler, it doesn't make much sense to run the play to get it to the screener.

A good point (like Stockton) reads the play as it develops and assesses which mismatch is most helpful to the offense and keeps or distributes the ball accordingly. Stockton, for example, was deadly at coming over the screen and either pulling up for an open jumper or beating his man to the rack. But he was equally adept at spotting a mismatch on Malone and getting the ball to Karl for easy baskets.

[wildbill2u]

wow did you see how he locked dwayne wade up last night - er wait actually he couldnt keep d wade in front of him for nothing. he needed help all the help he could get last night.

As a rule, SF CANT stay in front of guards, especially guards of All-Star caliber like Wade. It's a tribute to Bowen that he takes on whichever All-star threat is on the other team night after night--and usually does a great job.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Nice Solid no offense taken.

Implacable, you crack me up...

you played highschool and pick up ball in college so you know offensive players hate having someone in their grill ? I played too and I love it when someone gets in my grill when i have the ball in my hand - that is the challenge and it much much easier to get around someone who gets all in your grill.

Yep. I was the guy who played people tight defensively. I never heard more whining than when I had a guy locked up, bodied up on him, and he couldn't get breathing room. Guys who love scoring hate having someone crowd their space.

now as for the obsession with the picks - the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no -- it creates mismatches and opportunities. for you low bball iq folks and in the words of the extreme chump i cant dumb it down for you anymore unless we go into x's and o;s .-

You aren't even arguing the same thing anymore. The fact is the Miami offense, in order to get Bowen off of Wade, was running screens, sometimes with even 2-3 guys involved, just to get Wade a clean look.

So way back on page 1 when you said Bowen couldn't handle Wade, you were and still are wrong - Bowen couldn't handle Wade + 1-3 players on Miami setting screens for Wade.

There's a big difference, but you wouldn't know this because you've already proven to be the most basketball illiterate person in this thread (and that's saying something).

[ambchang]

Implacable is wrong about a lot of things, but he's right that screen-roll is designed to create mismatches and confusion. Not every screen-roll is intended to get the ball back to the screener. I mean, if the defense decides to double the screener or to play off of the ball-handler, it doesn't make much sense to run the play to get it to the screener.

A good point (like Stockton) reads the play as it develops and assesses which mismatch is most helpful to the offense and keeps or distributes the ball accordingly. Stockton, for example, was deadly at coming over the screen and either pulling up for an open jumper or beating his man to the rack. But he was equally adept at spotting a mismatch on Malone and getting the ball to Karl for easy baskets.

Sure, I agree that the pick-and-roll is used to create mismatches and confusion, but then what he said was:
a) that its purpose was to NOT pass the ball to the one setting the pick, and then
b) to create an offensive advantage.

a) is obviously wrong, because passing the ball to the screener is one of the major options in the play, while
b) is just true for every single offensive set.

[implacable44]

Yeah, the purpose is to gain an offensive advantage, well duh! What would you expect? The offensive team runs a play so that the defense can gain an advantage? Every single offensive set is ran to force the defense make a decision and have the offense gain an advantage. But the purpose of the pick and roll is NOT to not pass the ball to the player setting the pick. That is one of the MAIN options of the play.
I can't even believe I am arguing with a person of self-proclaimed high basketball IQ about whether pick-and-rolls were set so that the purpose is NOT to pass the ball to the one setting the pick. And no, don't go on and change the purpose now and say that it is about creating offensive advantage, because like I said, every single offensive set is done for that purpose.
And I am glad you brought up Nash and Stoudemire, another example of getting the ball to the one setting the pick.
The term pick-and-roll probably cued you in that the one setting the pick will roll to the basket for an easy deuce, but then again, your high basketball IQ is revolutionizing the game of basketball.

dude -- you are so blinded by intent to insult you can't see the forest for the trees man - someone made a comment about the purpose of the pick and roll being to pass to the the guy setting the pick - i said that is not the purpose but it is a possible result of the pick and roll. the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick. it is to force the defense to make a decision to create opportunities or mismatches. my comment about "the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick" was in response to someone saying that was the purpose.

[implacable44]

Which was obviously the point of your original lament in October/November that the Spurs didn't move Bruce for Ray Allen and the inimitable Jerome James.

You said back then that the Spurs would be fine defensively with Allen, because Manu was a as good a defender, if not better than Bowen. Would it be your argument that Manu would have done a better job on Wade or Kobe or McGrady this season than Bowen has? If not, then you've completely undermined your own point. If that would be your argument, I'm still hard pressed to buy it, particularly given Manu's injuries and Bowen's successes.

And, oh yeah, I'm overwhelmed by Jerome James' stellar play so far -- Jerome James makes Rasho Nesterovic look like a fusion of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. I'm bent the Spurs didn't give that dude a huge contract.

is rasho doing that great?

[implacable44]

Sure, I agree that the pick-and-roll is used to create mismatches and confusion, but then what he said was:
a) that its purpose was to NOT pass the ball to the one setting the pick, and then
b) to create an offensive advantage.

a) is obviously wrong, because passing the ball to the screener is one of the major options in the play, while
b) is just true for every single offensive set.

again - you are reading the post wrong. the SOLE purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick.