American Government

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Manny what exactly do you mean by trade schools

[MannyIsGod]

I think unless you are in a humanities program/sciences/arts program at a typical university, the primary focus is on getting people in and out the door with degrees. The more people the better. Quan y over quality. And why I don't think this is the case at many of the nations better schools, I'm sure it is the case at all of the nations "commuter" and smaller schools that are publicly funded.

When you can turn to your state legislature and say "Hi we're UTEP we graduted 129028402842084 students last year we need more money" or "Hi we're UT Pam Am and we did too!" there is obviosly an advandtadge to that approach. UTSA's president is more concerned about securing funding for additional rec centers and a football stadium to add prestiege to the school as opposed to graduating qualified entrants into the work force.

I don't think this nearly applies as much to the schools such as A&M, UT or privately funded schools such as Trinity. They are already well established as schools of higher learning. But most students don't go to those schools.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Ahh, I get it. I think it does apply to those bigger schools to some extent though. Maybe more cuz of the at ude of the student. being a science major, i see premeds around me all the time, who have that 'in and out with a 4.0' mindset programmed into their brains or something

[Peter]

For general management jobs, sales jobs, etc...the value of an undergraduate degree is probably overrated. Salesmanship and people skills cannot be learned in a classroom. While a work ethic can be honed and exhibited in undergrad, it is not necessarily something that you have to go to class to pick up. The likely reason employers look for candidates with an undergrad degree is that it is a quick and simple sorting factor (or signal.) On average, someone who has earned an undergrad degree is probably viewed as having the intellect and discipline to succeed in a certain position. I'm sure that there are plenty of examples to the contrary, but as a general rule, it would seem to work fairly well.

Obviously, for more technical positions (accounting, engineering, etc) an undergraduate education does matter somewhat. I don't know about you, but I could care less if my CPA received an A in Intro to American Government or not. I don't want to discuss John Rawls with an engineer or Keats with my attorney.

[Peter]

The ability to land business is why you often see folks without a stellar educational background having successful careers. Do not underestimate the value of being able to sell something in a professional setting.

[Peter]

If that's what you think, your game is still stuck in college.

[SWC Bonfire]

By the way, you made my point quite nicely that Universities have turned into glorified trade schools. You shouldn't try to contradict someone and then enforce what they are saying.

Its called introducing a discussion. You do it all the time, kettle.

[SWC Bonfire]

Do not underestimate the value of being able to sell something in a professional setting.

Agreed. I know salespeople that have no college education whatsoever, but the skill set that they have naturally matches the job perfectly.

[Peter]

Agreed. I know salespeople that have no college education whatsoever, but the skill set that they have naturally matches the job perfectly.

It's also why at any university you have plenty of profs making $40K a year while peeps without even a BA are millionaires many times over.

[Peter]

If one is not in business to make money then they teach, I guess.

[SWC Bonfire]

some people don't make money their career objective

you have incredibly brilliant people writing textbooks and idiots making millions by being on reality shows

You sure do, and they make their own imprint on society. But instead of ing about others making more money, perhaps some should realize that there were compromises and decisions that they made that directly affected their income.

[Peter]

My observations were made in the context of this thread, in which the discussion has been about the value of an undergrad degree for a career in business.

[SWC Bonfire]

salesmanship and people skills = ability and willingness to act like something/someone is the greatest thing in the world, regardless of personal conviction

I'm sure that salespeople never sell a product that they personally believe is superior to the compe ion, or that their company is superior to the compe ion.

[SWC Bonfire]

anyway i think undergraduate education in this country is getting tier by the year

1. more grad students and part-time professors teaching classes
2. undergrads who just want a 4 yr/4.0 degree in order to make money
3. undergrads who think they are smarter than the professor and use classtime to argue their own poitns
4. bs classes that professors use just to bounce their own ideas off students for their next book

5. Students (a majority of which are women by my observation and recent enrollment statistics) that are leery of entering the business world and stay in an environment that is more familiar - academia.

Exhibit B, I know three women with advanced degrees who now stay at home with the kids. Not that I'm against that by any means, but you could have saved yourself and your family a lot of $$$.

[SWC Bonfire]

hey and i'm sure a pros ute never has thought his/her client was attractive

I hate to go S y/Mookie on you (), but if you've ever had to do a sales job, you know that there is a special set of skills required that are needed to truly excel in that line of business. I did engineered sales for several years, and it was right on the edge of my personal limits.

[MannyIsGod]

SWC is not friendly torwards the women folk.

[SWC Bonfire]

SWC is not friendly torwards the women folk.

???

[Jekka]

5. Students (a majority of which are women by my observation and recent enrollment statistics) that are leery of entering the business world and stay in an environment that is more familiar - academia.

Exhibit B, I know three women with advanced degrees who now stay at home with the kids. Not that I'm against that by any means, but you could have saved yourself and your family a lot of $$$.

I'm so glad they bothered to have the women's lib movement for men like you.

I personally do not know any women who are "leery of entering the business world" - that's bull , and you're undermining the integrity of the entire gender. I wonder if you're the same type of guy who calls an ambitious woman a .

And your comment about wasting money to have a degree is pretty sad. Forget that it was a personal achievement for them, or that they might be able to use it when the kids are gone or if they for any reason want to get a job again later.

[Peter]

anyway i think undergraduate education in this country is getting tier by the year

1. more grad students and part-time professors teaching classes

No doubt. Publish or perish rules the day. Depending on the discipline, you can actually learn more from the part-time prof who has actually had to work in the field instead of someone who has spent their entire career in academia.

2. undergrads who just want a 4 yr/4.0 degree in order to make money

Nothing wrong with that. A little motivation isn't a bad thing.

3. undergrads who think they are smarter than the professor and use classtime to argue their own poitns

No doubt. Nothing is worse than someone who seeks to dominate the airtime in class to stroke their own ego (or the prof's).

4. bs classes that professors use just to bounce their own ideas off students for their next book

Those can be interesting.

[MannyIsGod]

Ah, I hate the ers who never shut up in class because they want to talk 10 minutes about a book they read on the subject that nobody cares about. Dip s.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree with many of MB's points. Salesmanship and the ability to take control of a situation and lead it in a certain direction will take you a million times farther into the business world than any degree on its own.

[Peter]

the problem with the part-timers is a lot of them are 25 year olds who just got their phd, work cheap, and are looking to get published

if you have a discussion-based class where the professor is a genius, then it's cool

but alot of times it will be some ahole ready to plagiarize the 5 most inciteful comments the students make during the semester

Well, I was thinking about the "part-time" prof who is someone who has spent 15 to 20 years doing what the class covers. Yeah, grad students who are learning to teach and have just started learning the subject themselves aren't usually the best choice to lead a course.

[MannyIsGod]

People in that position are much better off teaching on the JC level.

[Peter]

I think that private sector experience should be a requirement to teach in some disciplines (ie accounting, engineering, etc). In high school my physics teacher was a PhD in Geophysics. Probably the best class I had in HS. In undergrad and grad I had a handful of profs who were lecturers with extensive experience. Those were definitely among the best classes I had.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'm so glad they bothered to have the women's lib movement for men like you.

Name one time that I have been rude towards you.

I personally do not know any women who are "leery of entering the business world" - that's bull , and you're undermining the integrity of the entire gender. I wonder if you're the same type of guy who calls an ambitious woman a .

I know many. I won't bother everyone with details, nor am I saying that it is wrong or bad in some way (other than a waste of higher educational resources that could have been avoided had they had a clearer vision of what they actually wanted to do). And I can count on one hand the number of women that I have called a in my lifetime (and one time was said jokingly).

And your comment about wasting money to have a degree is pretty sad. Forget that it was a personal achievement for them, or that they might be able to use it when the kids are gone or if they for any reason want to get a job again later.

We're talking some pretty specialized degrees. Would take some serious refresher courses to get back up to speed in 10-20 years from now, and recertification/licencing in one instance.