Detroit Pistons and Flip Saunders

[zeleni]

OK, but still. The person wrote:

That's the comment I was most interested in.

LB makes a team with chemistry. That IS his whole gig. He gets a group to like each other, and then he bullies them to work as an unit. Larry Brown never let his team without him being the ultimate scapegoat.

On the other hand we have Flip, who doesn't stand up to Garnett, who shuffles players to suit all involved and meanwhile wants to win championship. Flip is weak and can be bullied even by the players. So why would he wanted a team concept, when his own career is at stake? The first blow by the players can ruin Flip.

Now the chemistry: Flip likes adjustments, likes all sorts of zone defense and offensive trickery. I presume players would not respond to such trickery if coaching means playoff losses. He's got 5 franchize players on this team to take care of.

[jochhejaam]

As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much ...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?

You are and should be proud of the ring for last year but bragging rights for being last years Champions does not carry over into the next year. You're a top contender this year but the bragging rights for 05-06 goes to the Finals winner of this year. Like so many posters have noted on this board, it's only the regular season so what's there to brag about?
Any team that appears strong during the regular season, Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Suns, Heat, has a right to speak confidently about their teams overall record and head to head decisions or speculate on their chances of becoming the Champions for this year.

Congratulation for the umpteenth time on being a great and respected Champion from last year but the book on this years Champion is still being written and most fans from the few select teams are hoping and believing that theirs will be the team spoken highly of in the final Chapter of this years story.

[polandprzem]

What a lame argument by some of the spurs fans

Godd job FreshPrince an Spurs>Pistons. First time in a long time I read the 'bigger' post.

Talking about Saunder - it's not that he will screw it up or not. We don't know. And talking how was he doing in 1999 is just ridiculous. How many years past? And Flip was still learning. Sometimes is good to change the previous inviorment like LB is doing in whole career (everybody talkin what a great coach he was but before Dave came to the SA he couldn't win jack). But he is great coach not taking anything from his success.

I thought that Detroit plyers will eat up Flip for dinner. But occasionaly they decided not to do this and make a frienship. Why I thought they would eat him? he is too soft a person for all those Sheeds and strong characters.
But the players are to good to just go into pieces.(or whatever should it sound)

Minutes?
Get real. The 2004 NBA Champions and the 2005 Finalists - that's all I had to say about the minutes. They have no injury problems. none. (big ones)


What I realy cears right now is how the spurs can be better in the PO and how they are doing. And If spurs will be in the Finals then Ill be thinking more about their opponents. Whether is Detroit or Detroit or Pistons



BTW. Do you think the spurs and the Pistons are nemesis to eachother. Like the Boston- Lakers in '80s ?

[zeleni]

I thought that Detroit plyers will eat up Flip for dinner. But occasionaly they decided not to do this and make a frienship. Why I thought they would eat him? he is too soft a person for all those Sheeds and strong characters.
But the players are to good to just go into pieces.(or whatever should it sound)

He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.

BTW. Do you think the spurs and the Pistons are nemesis to eachother. Like the Boston- Lakers in '80s ?

Yeah. But not this year. This year New Jersey will get into the finals.

[polandprzem]

He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.

Yup . If no major injurys will happen and they will loose in the Conf Finals than Flip will be cursed. But I do not think it will happen.

You know Flip is learning all the time like everybody else and if he is smart enough he can conlude from it and the leauge is in trouble.
But realy I do not see the Pistons with worst (from the last years PO) Ben and worst mcDyess to beat te spurs in maximum of their play. Now - we know the Pistons can play hard tough and so on. We havent seen spurs like that this year. Just have to wait after the ASB and the March and April games will show us the real spurs.

As for NJ. Come on. They can compite but talking about them being in the Finals is realy risky. Postons would go through them in six. (max 2 games by the Nest).
Is Frank better coach than Flip?

[jochhejaam]

He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.

I think Flip being "too soft" is a misnomer, don't be fooled by usually stoic, impassioned look on his face. I believe he's a perfect fit for the Piston's players who are totally focused on winning with the "team concept", a label which includes respecting the coaches abilities and genuinely buying into him being the leader of the team.
Players don't respect a coach that's "too soft".

[zeleni]

I think Flip being "too soft" is a misnomer, don't be fooled by usually stoic, impassioned look on his face. I believe he's a perfect fit for the Piston's players who are totally focused on winning with the "team concept", a label which includes respecting the coaches abilities and genuinely buying into him being the leader of the team.
Players don't respect a coach that's "too soft".

I was very intrigued by Flip when he coached Rasho. He doesn't make priorities on what to do next, he is more "what has happened with the team?" kind of a guy. He never leads a team more the to a winning streak and then he tries to fix something after the crisis happen. Not really a people's managment material. At playoffs players need to be tough and smart. Flip will be smart, they will be sheep, and they will get angry at him for making them sheep.

He will be soft and I had become a Messiah... That's just my opinion.

Really, Polandprzem, New Jersey will be in the finals. Or Cleveland, i really do not care... I have an exam coming up, so i need to sleep and dream about something more important.

[5ToolMan]

This paragraph in particular makes me think you don't watch the Pistons very often. Rasheed's dishing out more assists than he has in 5 years. His 2nd highest amount ever. And he's averaging 1 assist more than he was under LB the last 2 years. The last thing Rasheed should be called is a "blackhole". The dude is way too unselfish at times. He is probably the best face-up post player in the league. I wish he was a black hole down there. He's pretty much impossible to stop when he's facing the basket from 15 feet.

With League Pass, I see almost all Piston's games except segments that do not coincide with Spurs action. I acknowledge Rasheed passes well facing the basket as his advantage in length allow him to see the floor and wrap passes to open teammates. But there is an extreme difference when he posts up in the low blocks. From your comments above it appears you are trying to confuse the difference between when a player is facing up, and when he is posting. When Wallace posts in the low blocks, especially against long 7 footers like the Spurs have three of, I am confortable with the statement that he seldom passes out. He has the length to get the shots off, but is only completly focused on his offense in those brief moments.

In my view, Rasheed and McDyess are both solid post up players, yet the Pistons are not using them to post up as much as they should. In the regular season it is clear this does not hurt their team results. However in the playoffs, effective post play on both ends of the floor is at a premium.

As for Dice... Despite his minutes being down considerably, he's also averaging more assists than last season. And I wouldn't blame him if he was a black hole. He is tough to stop on that turnaround J, and he is supposed to be the focus of the offense when he's out there. If he takes a shot or 2, and he feels like he's off he doesn't force the issue at all. You don't have to worry about those 2 guys being "blackholes". There isn't a blackhole on this team.

Blackhole might be a little strong, as both are unselfish players. My point was that each are not as strong in passing out the post when backing down in the low blocks. I will stand by that.

[DarkReign]

Whoooooooooooo!

How can 2 teams from seperate conferences get in this kind of heated argument in February?!

There is no guarantee that WE will meet in the Finals. But I can tell you this, the Pistons have a much, much easier road there than the Spurs. No 7 game series with 2 days rest into the Finals.

Good luck.

[5ToolMan]

Whoooooooooooo!

How can 2 teams from seperate conferences get in this kind of heated argument in February?!

There is no guarantee that WE will meet in the Finals. But I can tell you this, the Pistons have a much, much easier road there than the Spurs. No 7 game series with 2 days rest into the Finals.

Good luck.

I don't know it heated is a very accurate description of most of the post. And your guarantee that the Piston's will have an easier road is foolish at best.

Stick with your first thought that it is only February. The Heat, Nets, and Cavs have all shown flashes that they could be solid if development continues for four more months. And there are a few more young teams like the Bulls, Bucks and Celtics who could get a little run and some confidence going.

While it is clear the West is still stronger overall, each team in either conference has to only get past three other teams to get the the finals. And until the brackets are set AND until each a team moves to the next round, we don't know what path will lay in their way.

[conqueso]

I don't know it heated is a very accurate description of most of the post. And your guarantee that the Piston's will have an easier road is foolish at best....While it is clear the West is still stronger overall, each team in either conference has to only get past three other teams to get the the finals. And until the brackets are set AND until each a team moves to the next round, we don't know what path will lay in their way.

While this is true, we also can say with a fair amount of certainty that Dallas and San Antonio will meet in the second round. We know the winner of the SW is going to be the number 1 seed, and we know that 2nd place in the SW is probably good for the 4 seed, and Memphis sure as isn't going to overtake either Dallas or SA.

Likewise, we know that Detroit is probably playing Cleveland in the second round based on the same logic. While I hate to agree with Dark Reign, a second round matchup against a Dallas team with playoff experience coached by my man AJ sounds scarier than a series against LBJ, and injury-prone Larry Hughes, a big white dump down low, and a bunch of scrubs. Dallas has kept up with the Spurs all season, while Cleveland is 11.5 games behind Detroit.

As for the other conference semis, unless something completely crazy happens, you have Miami/NJ in the East and Phoenix/Denver in the West. The winner of those two series is pretty easy to call, but by no means a complete certainty. So what seems likely is a Pistons/Heat, Spurs/Suns double rematch in the conference finals. That's what it looks like right now, and there's definitely a higher probability of that scenario than something crazy like Nets-Nuggets in the Finals. Obviously anything can happen, including injuries, upsets, or Armageddon, but looking at it realistically, it looks as if Detroit will probably have a much easier semi-final matchup than the Spurs, and thus an easier road to the Finals.

[FreshPrince22]

With League Pass, I see almost all Piston's games except segments that do not coincide with Spurs action. I acknowledge Rasheed passes well facing the basket as his advantage in length allow him to see the floor and wrap passes to open teammates. But there is an extreme difference when he posts up in the low blocks. From your comments above it appears you are trying to confuse the difference between when a player is facing up, and when he is posting. When Wallace posts in the low blocks, especially against long 7 footers like the Spurs have three of, I am confortable with the statement that he seldom passes out. He has the length to get the shots off, but is only completly focused on his offense in those brief moments.

In my view, Rasheed and McDyess are both solid post up players, yet the Pistons are not using them to post up as much as they should. In the regular season it is clear this does not hurt their team results. However in the playoffs, effective post play on both ends of the floor is at a premium.

Blackhole might be a little strong, as both are unselfish players. My point was that each are not as strong in passing out the post when backing down in the low blocks. I will stand by that.

Sheed is not a back-to-the-basket player. It is very rare to see him posting up with his back to the basket. Both this year and last year. Usually he ends up turning, facing, and shooting over his man. That's his game because of that high release he has. You're not going to see him throw up a hook shot or something.

And personally, when it comes to Sheed. He can take as many shots in the post as he wants. No one in the league can challenge it. But still, you're really nitpicking at something that isn't a factor. He doesn't exactly post up a ton (usually 3-4 times in spurts), and when he does, he is a very fine passer. Dice's passing is a complete non-factor as well. His job is to shoot the ball. And despite the Spurs having "3 long 7 footers", he always plays fantastic against the Spurs. So I hope he keeps doing what he's been doing.

[polandprzem]

Sheed is realy killing me with his fade away. Unsopable.

But he is more a permieter playa, jumpshooter and "screen and roll step back hitter".

And one of the best guarding Tim (PJ Brown, Foster the other ones)

[conqueso]

Sheed is realy killing me with his fade away. Unsopable.

But he is more a permieter playa, jumpshooter and "screen and roll step back hitter".

And one of the best guarding Tim (PJ Brown, Foster the other ones)

Tim Duncan, 2005 NBA Finals:
Game 1: 24 points (12-22), 17 rebounds
Game 2: 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds
Game 3: 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds
Game 4: 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds
Game 5: 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds
Game 6: 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds
Game 7: 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds

Finals Averages: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg
Season Averages: 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg

Tim Duncan, 2005 Regular Season (versus Detroit):
12/3/04: 18 points, 18 rebounds
3/20/05: injured in first quarter

(I have discounted the meetings between the teams this year because Tim was injured and the focus of this discussion really has been the past and not this season...although I'm already expecting to get blasted about not including those stats, I'll let someone else do it.)

So what do the numbers tell us? That Sheed is no better than the rest of the league at stopping Duncan's scoring, and that he gives up way more rebounds to TD than other defenders. Now, I know that Ben Wallace drew Duncan as his defensive assignment a lot in the NBA Finals, but that certainly doesn't help out the case for Rasheed, since Big Ben was Defensive Player of the Year and is just kind of axiomatically a better defender than Sheed.

So when you Pistons fans claim that Sheed plays great defense on Duncan, you really need to qualify the statement by adding "in 3 out of 7 Finals games" or "for brief spurts in one quarter" or "alright with scoring on some nights but just reprehensibly bad on the rebounds every night" or something like that. Or maybe someone could explain the intangibles of how they think Sheed is a great defender on Duncan, because the stats don't really support that argument.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Tim Duncan, 2005 NBA Finals:
Game 1: 24 points (12-22), 17 rebounds
Game 2: 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds
Game 3: 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds
Game 4: 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds
Game 5: 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds
Game 6: 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds
Game 7: 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds

Finals Averages: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg
Season Averages: 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg

Tim Duncan, 2005 Regular Season (versus Detroit):
12/3/04: 18 points, 18 rebounds
3/20/05: injured in first quarter

(I have discounted the meetings between the teams this year because Tim was injured and the focus of this discussion really has been the past and not this season...although I'm already expecting to get blasted about not including those stats, I'll let someone else do it.)

So what do the numbers tell us? That Sheed is no better than the rest of the league at stopping Duncan's scoring, and that he gives up way more rebounds to TD than other defenders. Now, I know that Ben Wallace drew Duncan as his defensive assignment a lot in the NBA Finals, but that certainly doesn't help out the case for Rasheed, since Big Ben was Defensive Player of the Year and is just kind of axiomatically a better defender than Sheed.

So when you Pistons fans claim that Sheed plays great defense on Duncan, you really need to qualify the statement by adding "in 3 out of 7 Finals games" or "for brief spurts in one quarter" or "alright with scoring on some nights but just reprehensibly bad on the rebounds every night" or something like that. Or maybe someone could explain the intangibles of how they think Sheed is a great defender on Duncan, because the stats don't really support that argument.

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

[FreshPrince22]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

Exactly. Timmy is going to get his points against ANYONE in the league. It's a matter of how many shots he needs to get there, and how hard he works for them.

[jochhejaam]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

56-129 for the series like you said just over 43% for the series vs 50% for last season and 49% this season. If he had hit his average of 50% in the series he would have had 14% more points or averaged 23 ppg instead of 20.
A far cry from being owned but still good defense on Tim.

[5ToolMan]

While this is true, we also can say with a fair amount of certainty that Dallas and San Antonio will meet in the second round. We know the winner of the SW is going to be the number 1 seed, and we know that 2nd place in the SW is probably good for the 4 seed, and Memphis sure as isn't going to overtake either Dallas or SA.

Likewise, we know that Detroit is probably playing Cleveland in the second round based on the same logic. While I hate to agree with Dark Reign, a second round matchup against a Dallas team with playoff experience coached by my man AJ sounds scarier than a series against LBJ, and injury-prone Larry Hughes, a big white dump down low, and a bunch of scrubs. Dallas has kept up with the Spurs all season, while Cleveland is 11.5 games behind Detroit.

As for the other conference semis, unless something completely crazy happens, you have Miami/NJ in the East and Phoenix/Denver in the West. The winner of those two series is pretty easy to call, but by no means a complete certainty. So what seems likely is a Pistons/Heat, Spurs/Suns double rematch in the conference finals. That's what it looks like right now, and there's definitely a higher probability of that scenario than something crazy like Nets-Nuggets in the Finals. Obviously anything can happen, including injuries, upsets, or Armageddon, but looking at it realistically, it looks as if Detroit will probably have a much easier semi-final matchup than the Spurs, and thus an easier road to the Finals.

I agree San Antonio and Dallas have a large advantage to grab the 1 and 4 seeds. However the Suns at only six back, and a return of Amare getting nearer, are not exactly eliminated from gaining the top seed, especially with potential injuries to key Spurs and Mavs.

If the Spurs, Mavs, or Suns gain the #1 seed, they may have their toughest round against a Rockets who may finally be getting healthy soon enough to slip in at #8. Potentially, this may be the toughest matchup for each of these teams.

I am not trying to pump the Rockets, just trying to demonstrate we don't know how teams will match up in a series, untill the series is over. Adjustments, focus and results are much different when playing a series of games against the same opponent, in win or go home time setting, than in the regular season, with little time to prepair.

In 2003 the 8th seeded Suns gave the Spurs perhaps the toughest series. In 2005 the top seeded Suns were perhaps the Spurs easiest series. I know both the Spurs and Suns were quite different teams from 2003 to 2005. But still, the Suns playing the Spurs tougher as an 8 seed than as the top dogs, tells me things are not always completly predictible.

[5ToolMan]

Sheed is not a back-to-the-basket player. It is very rare to see him posting up with his back to the basket. Both this year and last year. Usually he ends up turning, facing, and shooting over his man. That's his game because of that high release he has. You're not going to see him throw up a hook shot or something..

I agree, Rasheed does not post much with his back to the basket. Where we do not agree, is on the thought toat he and the Pistons would be better served in playoff hoops if he were to post more. I think his post game in under utilized, making the Pistons too dependent on jump shots.

If Duncan is much more mobile than in 2005, I grant a mighty bif IF, the Pistons penetration will be slowed, and the jump shots will be easier to close out. If that is the case, the Pistons will need more offense from the low block than they are currently are getting.

And personally, when it comes to Sheed. He can take as many shots in the post as he wants. No one in the league can challenge it. But still, you're really nitpicking at something that isn't a factor. He doesn't exactly post up a ton (usually 3-4 times in spurts), and when he does, he is a very fine passer. Dice's passing is a complete non-factor as well. His job is to shoot the ball. And despite the Spurs having "3 long 7 footers", he always plays fantastic against the Spurs. So I hope he keeps doing what he's been doing.

My point all along is that he does not set up enough in the low blocks. Not only does his length make him tough to stop. With more practice playing with his back to the basket, his passing out of the double teams that will eventualy come, would improve.

I agree it is nitpicking, as would be any critique of a 38 - 5 team. That said, it is my oppinion that the Pistons would have an easier time in the playoffs, if they worked Rasheed more in the low blocks in the regular season.

[Darrin]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

He actually shot 41.9% from the field, not 43%.

[Darrin]

LB makes a team with chemistry. That IS his whole gig. He gets a group to like each other, and then he bullies them to work as an unit. Larry Brown never let his team without him being the ultimate scapegoat.

On the other hand we have Flip, who doesn't stand up to Garnett, who shuffles players to suit all involved and meanwhile wants to win championship. Flip is weak and can be bullied even by the players. So why would he wanted a team concept, when his own career is at stake? The first blow by the players can ruin Flip.

Now the chemistry: Flip likes adjustments, likes all sorts of zone defense and offensive trickery. I presume players would not respond to such trickery if coaching means playoff losses. He's got 5 franchize players on this team to take care of.

What team are your watching?

[zeleni]

What team are your watching?

I spend too much time for nothing. I watched Larry Brown coaching 76's and Detroit when they played Lakers in the Finals.

I watched Flip playing Rasho for more than 2 seasons.

I read everything I can get about the Knicks and I want to know everything about the Pistons. You know a team where players weren't fed up with Brown when he left them?

Flip is fragile, and Larry is a son of a B. You really do not have to look at too many teams to conclude something like that, do you?

[leemajors]

flip appears to have control of his team, or maybe they just don't really need a choke collar on them, they know what to do. whether this is true come playoff time we will see, the piston's haven't really faced much adversity this season - this is in no way their own fault though, they have been that much better come gametime than just about everyone they have played, and that reflects well on both the coaches and players.

[Darrin]

I still don't think you are understanding why Spurs fans are bringing up minutes. Last season, it was the Pistons fans favorite excuse -- The Pistons are fatigued because the starters play so many minutes. This season, the starters play the same amount of minutes and Pistons fans say that fatigue isn't a factor.

To quote Joe Dumars:

"We didn't have enough depth. We needed a much deeper team. I saw three or four positions on our team that I looked at our team and said 'We've got to get stronger at these postions. I've got to go find guys who can bring more to the party.'

The basic thing that caused us the most problems last year is that we relied so heavily on our starters. And you could see it, by the time they got to the Finals, they were on fumes, man. They were on fumes. I said 'Okay, that's on me. I've got to get more guys, a deeper team, and guys that I know can go on the floor and make plays."

Source - Fox Sports Detroit: "Detroit Pistons Season Preview."


It's not an excuse; it was a weakness, and one that the Spurs could and did exploit to win their third NBA Championship in seven years. Saying the Nets didn't have any outside shooting in 2003 isn't an excuse as to why they Spurs won a le, it was simply a weakness of the team.

If the Nets went out and signed Eric Piatkowski and traded for Ray Allen, referring back to the 2003 Finals and saying "I saw last season we didn't have any shooting, and now we do" wouldn't be discrediting the 2003-04 Spurs' chances of repeating as Champions.

[cheguevara]

Let's be honest. Flip didn't do Jack yet, even with a monkey on Ruffies as a coach, Pistons would still have the same record.

But in the playoffs it's different, he'll need to step up