Manu Ginobili is the ing truth!!!

[smeagol]

Nah, TD is the best player in the L. TD has made both TP and Manu All-Stars.

MB, the more you change your screen name, the more stupid you become.

[FromWayDowntown]

MB, the more you change your screen name, the more stupid you become.

How so? Do you honestly believe that Manu and Tony don't owe any of their NBA success to Tim Duncan? Are you saying that if Manu and Tony were playing together in, say, Atlanta, that they'd be all-stars and the Hawks would be le contenders? Does anyone think that if Pop were coaching, say, the Knicks right now (and didn't have Tim Duncan) that the Knicks would be a solid playoff team?

Pop has basically admitted that his success is almost entirely a product of Tim Duncan's greatness; in fact, Pop has said that when Tim retires from playing, he'll retire from coaching. Was he joking? I doubt it. Tim makes up for some of Pop's shortcomings as a coach. And if you can't see that Pop has some shortcomings (predictability being the primary among those), I don't think you're watching very closely. The Spurs often can overcome those shortcomings because they are physically talented and properly constructed to do the things that make the broader system work. But, ultimately, Pop is an organizer, a talent evaluator, and a facilitator -- he shows his greatest strength as a coach when he realizes that there are just times he needs to get the out of the way and let the guys work the system.

There's a symbiosis with the Spurs, but the host in that relationship is Tim Duncan -- no Tim, no les. And that's been proven by history; the only constants in the Spurs le runs are Pop and Tim, and, again, Pop attributes his successes to Timmy. Change the roster around #21 and the Spurs still contend. Take #21 out of the mix for a while, and the Spurs are slightly above-average, at best.

Pop has rings and awards and acclaim, but in reality, those are the products of his understanding that he's got a once-in-a-lifetime superstar on his roster. Manu and Tony have been perfectly willing to admit that Tim is a significant factor in their successes as NBA players -- that Timmy helps to make them all-stars. Certainly, they've put in a ton of hard work to make great things happen for themselves and they are to be commended for that. They're among my favorite players in the NBA. But, in my opinion, it's Timmy's presence that puts them over the top on a season-long basis and makes them the high-profile players that they have become.

[1Parker1]

How so? Do you honestly believe that Manu and Tony don't owe any of their NBA success to Tim Duncan? Are you saying that if Manu and Tony were playing together in, say, Atlanta, that they'd be all-stars and the Hawks would be le contenders? Does anyone think that if Pop were coaching, say, the Knicks right now (and didn't have Tim Duncan) that the Knicks would be a solid playoff team?

Pop has basically admitted that his success is almost entirely a product of Tim Duncan's greatness; in fact, Pop has said that when Tim retires from playing, he'll retire from coaching. Was he joking? I doubt it. Tim makes up for some of Pop's shortcomings as a coach. And if you can't see that Pop has some shortcomings (predictability being the primary among those), I don't think you're watching very closely. The Spurs often can overcome those shortcomings because they are physically talented and properly constructed to do the things that make the broader system work. But, ultimately, Pop is an organizer, a talent evaluator, and a facilitator -- he shows his greatest strength as a coach when he realizes that there are just times he needs to get the out of the way and let the guys work the system.

There's a symbiosis with the Spurs, but the host in that relationship is Tim Duncan -- no Tim, no les. And that's been proven by history; the only constants in the Spurs le runs are Pop and Tim, and, again, Pop attributes his successes to Timmy. Change the roster around #21 and the Spurs still contend. Take #21 out of the mix for a while, and the Spurs are slightly above-average, at best.

Pop has rings and awards and acclaim, but in reality, those are the products of his understanding that he's got a once-in-a-lifetime superstar on his roster. Manu and Tony have been perfectly willing to admit that Tim is a significant factor in their successes as NBA players -- that Timmy helps to make them all-stars. Certainly, they've put in a ton of hard work to make great things happen for themselves and they are to be commended for that. They're among my favorite players in the NBA. But, in my opinion, it's Timmy's presence that puts them over the top on a season-long basis and makes them the high-profile players that they have become.

Very well said. I too don't think Manu or Tony would be All-Stars if it weren't for Tim Duncan. On the flip side though, I do think Pop has had a big influence in the team's success. He has helped made the team what it is today...sure the Spurs would still be contenders if they still had Tim Duncan, but do you think they would have won as many rings?

Pop has been a huge influence on Manu and Tony becoming the players they are today and his defense first approach and overall team ethic that he has helped build has been just as huge a factor in the Spurs success.

[Sportman]

i think that tony, manu and tim need at each other to have achieved all this. People this is a TEAM, REMEMBER IT. Without a team, spurs haven´t won anything and Tim is the main KEY inside this team, all people dont have to forget that.

[zeleni]

If you say Spurs and Pop without TD would be just a slightly above average, you do not know what you are saying. TD is spiritus movens, OK, but this team is not that bad.

Rasho and Nazr, with Marks and Horry, with TP and Beno, with Manu and Bowen, with Finley and NVE... No, Spurs are above average. And not just slightly above. The only reason you could say something as propostrous as this is, that this players would never stay/come in San Antonio or take a paycut to win more championship.

TD and Pop lead each other. I can also say that TD would not have TP and Manu without Pop ways of guiding this ship along. I can even say Spurs would lose if RC Buford got lost.

TD is the greatest team player around. And he wins games. Ave Triumphiator!

[Peter]

You take away TD from TP and you are left with a speedy guard with a shaky J who has a hard time getting into the paint (where most of his offense comes from) since he doesn't have the best player in the game drawing the attention of the opposing D.

As for Ginobili, it's the same basic concept. No TD and an opponent's D can focus on shutting him down. The easiest way is to simply double him and force him to give up the rock.

Ginobili's All-Star berth last season was due in no small part to his postseason rep. Take that away, which is not hard to do if you are projecting where a Spurs team w/o Duncan would be in the L, and he's got what?

Take TD away and a marginal offensive talent like Bowen doesn't get the chance to hit 2 crucial late jumpers yesterday.

Duncan remains the focal point of opposing defenses. Opponents look to force another Spur to beat them, which is why Manu gets to play the late game hero. Sooner or later the nabobs of this forum will figure it out.

[Peter]

In addition, a significant number of Manu's scores come after the rock is thrown in to TD. A not so small part of the reason Pop goes to 4-Down so often in the 4th, even to the dismay of the resident forum idiot.

I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. If you need an illustration, take a look at the Lakers w/Shaq and post-Shaq. With Shaq, the Lakers win 3 of 4 NBA Finals. Without him, they don't taste the postseason, even with the great scoring swingman leading the way.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. If you need an illustration, take a look at the Lakers w/Shaq and post-Shaq. With Shaq, the Lakers win 3 of 4 NBA Finals.

That, or Spurs @ Toronto, February 8, 2006.

[Peter]

That, or Spurs @ Toronto, February 8, 2006.

I was just thinking about that. Take away TD and the Spurs are lucky to beat a Toronto who just gave up their #1 option in a trade.

[emveepee]

Unlike a certain NJ shooting guard's raisin sized ones....

Who? The Olympic Super Scrub?

[Sportman]

That´s stupid because in this way i could say spurs was defeated by atlanta because manu was not on the court........that´s no sense, all people know about the role each spurs´players have but you cant say that, Tim is the key inside this team but without manu spurs hadnt won the last nba finals, COME ON!!!!

[FromWayDowntown]

That´s stupid because in this way i could say spurs was defeated by atlanta because manu was not on the court........that´s no sense, all people know about the role each spurs´players have but you cant say that, Tim is the key inside this team but without manu spurs hadnt won the last nba finals, COME ON!!!!

But without Tim, the Spurs wouldn't have been IN the NBA Finals.

[Peter]

Without TD the Spurs aren't in the Finals. Without TD on the court drawing the attention of the opposing D, Manu isn't able to play the late game hero.

[Sportman]

But without Tim, the Spurs wouldn't have been IN the NBA Finals.

For that reason this is a TEAM, all people have to do his job for achieving

[FromWayDowntown]

The Church of Manu and the Church of Tony must have their meetings at the Temple of Timmy, since this whole thing starts and ends with #21.

I appreciate all of the Church of Manu and Church of Tony adherents and those who want to prop Manu and Tony as major players and stars. Those guys deserve all kinds of praise for their play. They've been vital to the Spurs' successes and their improvements from year-to-year have allowed the Spurs to remain contenders. But does anyone truly believe that the Spurs would be remotely considered a le contender if Timmy retired tomorrow? Seriously.

[Sportman]

I appreciate all of the Church of Manu and Church of Tony adherents and those who want to prop Manu and Tony as major players and stars. Those guys deserve all kinds of praise for their play. They've been vital to the Spurs' successes and their improvements from year-to-year have allowed the Spurs to remain contenders. But does anyone truly believe that the Spurs would be remotely considered a le contender if Timmy retired tomorrow? Seriously.

I agree with that, absolutly!!.........TIM has been always THE MAN!!

[FromWayDowntown]

For that reason this is a TEAM, all people have to do his job for achieving

I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a team effort. But in the NBA, teams tend to reach the Finals and win championships either when they have a dominant player accompanied by several good sidekicks or when they have a great starting lineup full of multi-talented players. The Spurs don't have that kind of starting lineup on a talent-for-talent basis. What makes the Spurs starting lineup appear so talented -- and what allows the Spurs to win consistently -- is the presence of Tim Duncan and his ability to elevate the play of his teammates to championship levels. If Tim was all about Tim, the Spurs likely wouldn't be as good as they are. But, by the same token, if Tim wasn't as good as he is, the Spurs also likely wouldn't be as good as they are.

[nkdlunch]

But does anyone truly believe that the Spurs would be remotely considered a le contender if Timmy retired tomorrow? Seriously.

no sherlock. where in this thread someone made that claim?

[FromWayDowntown]

no sherlock. where in this thread someone made that claim?

Well, there was the "Spurs won the Finals because of Manu" claim; and I argued that without Tim, the Spurs would be, at best, slightly above-average, only to be told that I wasn't paying attention if I believed that. Is that good enough for you?

[bdubya]

What did he do?

If I'm reading the le right, he got it on with Paul Pierce. Eeewwww.....

[Sportman]

I agree with your point, TIM has been always the best player of this TEAM, but i continue saying that without manu spurs couldnt have got the last championship.

[austinfan]

Yes, Tim is the bedrock of the Spurs, and without him, we wouldn't have won any of the championships we have. Having said that, no individual player, even Duncan, has 100% complete mastery of the game, and in Duncan's case, he needs others to light a fire under him when he gets in a rut or down on himself or too "in his head" (I know exactly what that feels like, so I'm not criticizing that quality in him, just saying that it exists), and that's where Manu comes in. He's got that x factor that communicates itself to the other players and motivates them and gets them fired up for the game. In this respect, I think Timmy and Manu are the perfect complement to each other: Tim is the rock-solid, dependable team member who will always be consistent; Manu is the crazy intangibles guy who provides that extra jolt of unpredictability. They're both great, but the sum total of their partnership (and not leaving out the others Spurs either) is greater than the parts of it.

[Peter]

Problem is, TD's won a le without Manu.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Without TD the Spurs aren't in the Finals. Without TD on the court drawing the attention of the opposing D, Manu isn't able to play the late game hero.

He's played the late game hero without TD plenty of times so don't give me that crap! I think its bull . Perhaps if TP and Manu hadn't come to the Spurs they wouldn't have won 2 championships, but I'm willing to bet neither would Duncan. The Spurs' success is due to all 3 of them, perhaps a little more so in the case of Duncan since he was a big part of the 1999 championship. In fact, I would add Bruce Bowen to that list, I think he's an extremely important factor on this team.

Now quit ing about who is more important and enjoy the fact that we're doing well!

[leemajors]

i don't think that's a problem. td needed gnob this last time, there's nothing wrong with that. you need help when an entire team's philosohy is to clog the paint, making you less effective.