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I agree^
Adoption still involves going through an entire nine months of pregnancy and childbirth - forcing a woman to go through that is abusive. On the other hand, coercing a woman into having an abortion would also be abusive.
I agree that using abortion as an only method of birth control is incredibly irresponsible, but as a last resort it needs to exist. If you take away the option of legal abortions, you are going to see a huge increase in numbers of women arriving at emergency rooms with all kinds of sharp objects lodged in their uterus and infections to boot. It is not always a feasible option to go through a pregnancy, and any woman with a conscience making the choice knows just as much if not more of what's given up in an abortion than any man arguing that she shouldn't have the option.
I am a product of infant adoption - I know that adoption works and that it is an option for some people. But not for everyone. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to give up a child that they've carried inside them for so long, and not everyone can do that. Not every woman can put their life on hold to go through a pregnancy - especially young women who are in school because who knows when they will get a chance to finish? And what kind of jobs will they be able to hold to provide for the child without those degrees? It's not realistic to assume that the man involved in the pregnancy will stick around and support the hypothetical child until he/she turns 18.
And I'm so tired of hearing that anything negative that happens to a sexually active person is what they deserve. Accidents happen, no matter how prepared you try to be, and sexuality is an aspect of human nature that shouldn't require a marriage license and economic stability to be enjoyed. The option of legal abortion for every woman needs to exist - not because it's a good thing, but because it's necessary.
I agree^
[QUOTE]The arguement against abortion is promoted by both men and women.
That so called "abuse" pales in comparison to the abuse of an abortion that results in the death of the unborn.
Woman: "I just can't go through with carrying you to term my child, "I" am just not up to it at this time so tough luck for you little one, "I" am going to have to take your life from you...ah, but at least "I" can finish "my" schooling and on top of that "I" got to enjoy non-commital sex so it wasn't a total loss"
A last resort, and most people with a conscience agree, means the life of the mother is at stake, rape and incest which cons utes less than 2% of all abortions. Those with a conscience and a high regard for the sanc y of human life (a conscience and high regard for the unborn go hand in hand) wouldn't have an abortion under any other cir stances.I agree that using abortion as an only method of birth control is incredibly irresponsible, but as a last resort it needs to exist. If you take away the option of legal abortions, you are going to see a huge increase in numbers of women arriving at emergency rooms with all kinds of sharp objects lodged in their uterus and infections to boot. It is not always a feasible option to go through a pregnancy, and any woman with a conscience making the choice knows just as much if not more of what's given up in an abortion than any man arguing that she shouldn't have the option.
The opinion that putting a job or schooling on hold takes on more importance than the life of a child is the pinnacle of selfishness and self absorbtion. This philosophy of I'm the most important person in my life is known as "watching our for number one" and is the an hesis of love in it's purest form.Not every woman can put their life on hold to go through a pregnancy - especially young women who are in school because who knows when they will get a chance to finish? And what kind of jobs will they be able to hold to provide for the child without those degrees?
The option of legal abortion for every woman needs to exist - not because it's a good thing, but because it's necessary.
Those are the true meaning of love-Esteem others as better than yourself.
-Let no man seek his own but every man another's wealth.
-No greater love is there than that a man would lay down his life for his brother.
-Bible-
Rove has already announced that the wedge issue for the Repugs will be national security/war on terror.
Since the Repubs absolutely can't run (honestly) on the horrendous dubya/ head record, Repugs will be scaring The American People with all kinds of "national security" lies, in direct continuity with preceding lies about WMD, Iraq as immediate threat to USA, Saddam-Qaida links, Saddam-hit-WTC, etc.
[QUOTE=jochhejaam]The argument against abortion is promoted by more people than you think - I say this because pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion - most women would advocate to have the child if it is possible. Most women do only use it as a last resort. It's unfair to paint the picture that every women stepping into an abortion clinic is a selfish .The arguement against abortion is promoted by both men and women.
That so called "abuse" pales in comparison to the abuse of an abortion that results in the death of the unborn.
Woman: "I just can't go through with carrying you to term my child, "I" am just not up to it at this time so tough luck for you little one, "I" am going to have to take your life from you...ah, but at least "I" can finish "my" schooling and on top of that "I" got to enjoy non-commital sex so it wasn't a total loss"
Alright, from the social point of view - if you want to make it illegal for women to have abortions unless it's a case of the mother's health, rape, or incest, how do you propose that all women find the means to get adequate prenatal care - who is going to pay for a hospital delivery when so many of these women don't have health insurance? Who is going to adopt all of these babies that women can't care adequately for? Yes, there are a lot of people waiting for infants, but not as many families to make up for the number of abortions. What happens then?A last resort, and most people with a conscience agree, means the life of the mother is at stake, rape and incest which cons utes less than 2% of all abortions. Those with a conscience and a high regard for the sanc y of human life (a conscience and high regard for the unborn go hand in hand) wouldn't have an abortion under any other cir stances.
Your view of love is just your view - you may judge others based on this view, but you shouldn't legislate by it. This isn't just the child, it's the mother, too, and she needs to have a say in what happens to her body, no matter what cir stance led to her situation. She should have all of the information and be well educated in her options, and ultimately it should be her decision.The opinion that putting a job or schooling on hold takes on more importance than the life of a child is the pinnacle of selfishness and self absorbtion. This philosophy of I'm the most important person in my life is known as "watching our for number one" and is the an hesis of love in it's purest form.
There are plenty of instances in which the state regulates what we do with our bodies. That's not exactly the most compelling argument.
There are plenty of instances when the state regulates matters they have no right to regulate.
So all regulation should be removed?
[QUOTE]With all due respect for you Jekka I've heard the arguement before and frankly being pro-choice and against abortion falls under the category of hypocrisy IMO. If you can't take a stand against something as tragically final as abortion then you fall into the category of those that support it by default.
I don't know who these people are that paint those getting abortion as selfish s but I'm not among them. It's the abortion for convenience and the abortion activists that I have a problem with
If the abortion is for reasons of the life of the mother only the insane would be against that. In the case of incest or rape I'm also against it, why should the baby receive the ultimate punishment because of the crime of the father? The baby has an absolute right to life regardless of the cir stances under which he/she was conceived. The woman is still the babies mother and if after birth she doesn't want anything to do with it then that's where adoption becomes the option.
Alright, from the social point of view - if you want to make it illegal for women to have abortions unless it's a case of the mother's health, rape, or incest, how do you propose that all women find the means to get adequate prenatal care - who is going to pay for a hospital delivery when so many of these women don't have health insurance? Who is going to adopt all of these babies that women can't care adequately for? Yes, there are a lot of people waiting for infants, but not as many families to make up for the number of abortions. What happens then?
Prenatal care being unnaffordable is cited by 20% of women for having an abortion. It's not like we're talking about getting a new car or buying a house here, we're talking about terminating a life because of cost? :vomit
I wonder how many of these women (men are behind the scenes in most abortions so they too are implicated) rack up credit card for something far less important than a human life...? Who knows how many women would keep the baby if they carried it to term instead of aborting it and who says there wouldn't be enough adoptive families for those that decided they didn't want to keep the baby?
It's the view I have and it's shared by many. The view I have is authored by one far greater than me and I don't put myself in the place of their judge as ultimately the issue will be between them and their Creator. As I've shared before in this forum I have a sister who had an abortion 20+ years ago and is at times still haunted by it. She's asked for and thereby received God's forgiveness and she's never received anything but spiritual and emotional support and unconditional love from her family.Your view of love is just your view - you may judge others based on this view, but you shouldn't legislate by it. This isn't just the child, it's the mother, too, and she needs to have a say in what happens to her body, no matter what cir stance led to her situation. She should have all of the information and be well educated in her options, and ultimately it should be her decision.
I don't think people who automatically assume an agenda when encountered with any opinion which looks like it might counter their own (which we can see in fine form here: http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthre...t=35100&page=3) and then offer up "proof" in the form of writings from their belief system/religion should go around casting the hypocrisy stone.
Well, you called them selfish, and you called them sexually irresponsible, so while the language may have been more graphic than you would have used, essentially that's what you said.I don't know who these people are that paint those getting abortion as selfish s but I'm not among them.
That's punishing a woman for being raped, which is misogyny if I've ever seen it. Tell me, if she was wearing a red dress when it happened was she asking for it?If the abortion is for reasons of the life of the mother only the insane would be against that. In the case of incest or rape I'm also against it, why should the baby receive the ultimate punishment because of the crime of the father?
Without the benefit of health insurance, which many women in this situation do not have, the cost of prenatal care and a hospital birth could in fact cost as much as a new car. And if anything happens to the baby during delivery, or if he or she is born prematurely, then, yes, it could cost as much as a house.Prenatal care being unnaffordable is cited by 20% of women for having an abortion. It's not like we're talking about getting a new car or buying a house here
I'll be the first to agree that America has a credit problem, but I'm pretty sure that most women don't make the decision to abort based on whether or not they'll be able to charge a Louis Vuitton bag next month after they make the minimum payment on some Manolos.I wonder how many of these women (men are behind the scenes in most abortions so they too are implicated) rack up credit card for something far less important than a human life...?
You "don't put yourself in the place of their judge"? I think your argument thus far has been pretty judgemental. You want to punish women for being raped and you've called every woman - excuse me, every women except for those whose health was at risk - who has had an abortion selfish.It's the view I have and it's shared by many. The view I have is authored by one far greater than me and I don't put myself in the place of their judge as ultimately the issue will be between them and their Creator. As I've shared before in this forum I have a sister who had an abortion 20+ years ago and is at times still haunted by it. She's asked for and thereby received God's forgiveness and she's never received anything but spiritual and emotional support and unconditional love from her family.
I think your sister was incredibly brave for sharing her experience with your family - if I was her I wouldn't have wanted to tell that to someone like yourself who so blatantly disapproves of her decision.
And really, if you can't make an argument without gagging (":vomit") perhaps you should refine it.
When it comes to peoples bodies? Yes.
[QUOTE=Jekka]Well, you called them selfish, and you called them sexually irresponsible, so while the language may have been more graphic than you would have used, essentially that's what you said.
Let's be fair here jekka, I haven't twisted or grossly exaggerated your words and perhaps you can offer me the same treatment.
No crime was committed by the baby so why destroy him/her because of the crime of some idiot? Misogyny? Woman in a red dress asking for it? You really should aim those misguided barbs at someone who's posted something that would call for that type of comment, I've posted nothing deserving of either.That's punishing a woman for being raped, which is misogyny if I've ever seen it. Tell me, if she was wearing a red dress when it happened was she asking for it?
You won't win any talking points with undue criticism or exaggerations or sarcasm.
So the life of a human being isn't worth the price of a car of a house? That's defined as extremely low regard for the sanc y of human life...but to each his/her own.Without the benefit of health insurance, which many women in this situation do not have, the cost of prenatal care and a hospital birth could in fact cost as much as a new car. And if anything happens to the baby during delivery, or if he or she is born prematurely, then, yes, it could cost as much as a house.
Where did I say that I wanted to punish every womanor where I stated that every woman who had an abortion is selfish? If you can't back up your arguements with facts you may be better off reading without replying. A very high percentage of your arguements are based on the opinions some have on abortion but clearly have nothing to do with the content of my posts.You "don't put yourself in the place of their judge"? I think your argument thus far has been pretty judgemental. You want to punish women for being raped and you've called every woman - excuse me, every women except for those whose health was at risk - who has had an abortion selfish.
It's an understatement for me to say that your comprension skills need an overhaul. I clearly stated that my sister received nothing but emotional and spiritual support and unconditional love.I think your sister was incredibly brave for sharing her experience with your family - if I was her I wouldn't have wanted to tell that to someone like yourself who so blatantly disapproves of her decision.
For what it's worth, my sister would be 100% behind my position on abortion and totally against yours.
While the life of a child apparently has little value to you it definitely sickens me to know that a segment of our society can discard him or her like a piece of trash. If that bothers you so be it.And really, if you can't make an argument without gagging (":vomit") perhaps you should refine it.
Feel free to further distort my arguements you will have at least labeled yourself as being consistent in posting style.
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