Nash with a b2b MVP (?)

[JMarkJohns]

The award is given at the end of the regular season. The prefix "post" is Latin for "after", therefore the word "postseason" means "after the season". Its used to describe the playoffs doesn't mean that it's the only meaning of the word.

Well, considering half in here are using past les won as part of the criteria, one can't know for certain what is meant by "a postseason award".

I called tails, the coin landed heads, let's move on...

I think we can all agree that the award is a regular season award that, in order to factor in the entire regular season, is given after the end of the regular season or, as you've so clearly laid out, postseason.



Funny that Nash gets so much hate around here. Honestly, I just can't figure it out. He's not a threat to the Spurs overall sucess. He's not a pompous ass or a showboat or ballhog. He's a player many though so little of coming out of high school that he received one DI scholorship offer, then worked his ass off to make a name for himself enough to get drafted, then enough to succeed at the NBA level. I'm sure he regrets his inability to defend, but it is just that, an inability. It's not for a lack of effort. His one main weakness is slow lateral speed, which happens to be the key to perimeter defense.

Gripe all you want. It's your right. I'm not here to say it isn't or that you're not qualified to have an opposing opinion.

Many of the differing here are well thought out and well backed. Some aren't. Some, just come from leftfield and hold no water.

I've certainly held all three kinds, as I'm quite sure every has.

[NCaliSpurs]

You're right, there are none... I am caught.

Yes you are caught.

And you oversimplify my arguments to the point that you represent yourself as either stupid, too "biased" to see past your own point of view, or are a plain and simple liar.

I said that you have to consider historical significance when giving a player a nod to a back-to-back MVP's. Absolutely.

Whether you agree with this point or not, you still can't find an objective measure by which to give the MVP to Nash.

You say you can't consider previous seasons in one sentence, but then say that he deserves based on winning it last year in the next.

I am not the authority. But like I said, a million fools can't be wrong, so you and the media must be correct.

Face.

[Obstructed_View]

To win MVP...

Player must not be the best player on his own team. If he plays alongside one or more all-stars, is coached by the NBA Coach of the year and his team is managed by the executive of the year, these facts must be glossed over and all credit given to player. If player plays in a system that inflates his offensive numbers, that must be pointed out and also used to excuse player's lack of defense.

To win multiple MVPs...

Player must be white and have the attention of the media. Reasons used to make the case for the first MVP can be disregarded now that he has his foot in the door

To win back-to-back MVPs...
Player play for what is perceived to be an exciting team just because they jack up a lot of shots, and must receive all the credit for exceeding the low preseason predictions made by self-appointed basketball experts.

Let me be the first to start the campaign: WHITE CHOCOLATE FOR MVP 2007!

[JamStone]

That is true. One argument was that Nash had better stats than the previous season in which he also won the MVP. But, then you countered you have to base it only on the current regular season and that only.

The truth is if you base it only on the 2005-06 season, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Dirk Nowitzki all have had better individual seasons. And, in Dirk's case, his team had more success.

Voters who did cast their ballots for Nash DID take into consideration last season. That's why many people who have posted on this thread oppose giving the MVP to Nash. It just appears he is being honored for helping his team be very good when they should have been great, instead of realizing that Nash just helped his team be very good, BUT NOT GREAT.

[JamStone]

Let me be the first to start the campaign: WHITE CHOCOLATE FOR MVP 2007!

I don't know if Jason Williams will be able to edge out Luke Walton.

[NCaliSpurs]

At the end of the day, Nash is still a rich, back-to-back-MVP NBA player.

So good for him.

As a big fan of the NBA, I don't have to like it. And god forbid that I don't.

[JMarkJohns]

That is true. One argument was that Nash had better stats than the previous season in which he also won the MVP. But, then you countered you have to base it only on the current regular season and that only.

My argument for Nash is this.

His team had the highest turnover of players of any team in the League. Not even Miami had the number of new players Phoenix did as just four (not counting Amare) remained from last season.
- He had three new starters that he both had to grow accustomed to, but involve in a system that didn't easily fit them (Thomas is older, slower; Jones was slower and playing big minutes for really the first time; Bell had never attempted more than 200 threes in a season).
- He had a brand new bench, one which faced the same problems as his new starters; unfamilierity, lack of development and ability to adapt to a system (Barbosa was coming off a horrid season; House was a journeyman; Diaw was an unknown; Grant was old, slow and coming off a injury plagued season).

His team faced the most injury of any team in the League. From the beginning of the year, thoughout and even up until the end, he never got a chance to play with a full squad, something no other team can really say.
- Amare, his #1 man from last season and the teams only low-post presense played three injury-conscious games all season.
- Barbosa, Jones, Grant and Thomas missed significant chunks of time, all at random periods. All were integral pieces to a team that had to depend on its depth ot overcome its lack of inside play.

His team, despite everything above, was one of the most potent offensive teams in League history and it was largely because of Nash. Nash's team led the League in all of the following stats...
Points Per Game
Assists Per Game
Own Assists/Opponants Assists Ratio
Field Goals Made
Field Goal Percentage
3-pointers Made (set NBA record)
3-Point Field Goal Percentage
Free Throw Percentage
Offensive Efficiency
Offensive Efficiency Differential
...And most importantly...
POINTS IN THE PAINT

I've never held the MVP award was Nash's and Nash's only. I've clearly said, many, many times that either Dirk, Kobe, James or even Wade could win and I'd be fine with it. More than fine, because I can make a case for them just as easily. However, in the three games Nash didn't play this season, the Suns were 0-3 and scored an average of 95 points, compared to 108 in with him.

The truth is if you base it only on the 2005-06 season, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Dirk Nowitzki all have had better individual seasons. And, in Dirk's case, his team had more success.

Nash nearly averaged 20 points, 11 assists while shooting better than 50% from the field and 40% from range while leading the NBA in FT%.

He had his best year across the board and did so despite everything above. Nothing I've said right now being last year into things.

Voters who did cast their ballots for Nash DID take into consideration last season. That's why many people who have posted on this thread oppose giving the MVP to Nash.

Yet some of the same voters who oppose Nash winning the award are saying that the award should have history factored in to the criteria.

Seems contradictory that they want to factor in other players and their success, but don't want Nash's success last year to be part of the criteria for the award this year.

As I said above, you can make a of a case for Nash, without bringing up last season.

It just appears he is being honored for helping his team be very good when they should have been great, instead of realizing that Nash just helped his team be very good, BUT NOT GREAT.

That's not fair. Take off any teams most talented player for basically the entire year and you should not have expectations of greatness. In fact, most experts had the Suns battling for a final playoff birth, if not missing the playoffs entirely. If anything, Nash helped these Suns be very good when most expected them to be average.

If that factors in, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal, considering COY usually goes to a coach who's teams superceed the lowly expectations and when the NBA tends to award players who come from out of nowehere for the MIP rather than players who gradually improve over the course of a few years.

Exceeding expectations is a big part of all the "postseason" awards.



Again, NCali, Obstructed View, whomever else... Not saying you're entirely wrong, I'm just not saying I agree...

[TDMVPDPOY]

Theres talk of ben wallace winnin dpoy again , feel sorry for the kingz though bruce bowen will show the critics wrong they gave the award to wrong player. WTF does a spurs player have to do to win a DPOY award? we been dominating in the defensive end since duncan era.

[Obstructed_View]

Again, NCali, Obstructed View, whomever else... Not saying you're entirely wrong, I'm just not saying I agree...

There's always room for disagreement. If there were no disagreement, this would be the Kings board.

I have never, EVER before heard a case made for Jordan, Duncan, Magic, Hakeem or anyone else that has ever been an MVP that took their teammates or their health or their team turnover or their personal perception of the team system or the preseason projections or the previous season into account. It has just never happened until the last two years. A couple of people started making excuses to get Nash the MVP last year and it has absolutely snowballed.

Name an MVP in the last 20 years aside from Nash where exceeding expectations was a factor. In fact, look at the list all time and tell me where it has ever happened in the entire history of the award. We are entering uncharted territory here. This is like awarding the 1997 MVP to Matt Maloney instead of Karl Malone because the Rockets improved by ten games. It's complete insanity.

[1Parker1]

Nash can have the award. When fans look back on the 2006-2007 season they will think:

1) 81 points
2) Lebron leading Cavs to playoffs...finally
3) Billups big shots which helped Pistons get one of the hottest starts in NBA history
4) Dirk leading a Mavs team to 60 wins...while playing defense
5)....Nash helping the Suns win 50 games, without Amare, Marion dominating points in the paint, and the emergence of Diaw.

[JMarkJohns]

I think it stems from the lack of legit superstars.

Think about it. Today's superstar cons utes the likes of McGrady, Pierce, Ming, Carter, etc...

None of them are complete. Not of them are that great. None of them ever have much playoff success. None of them can individually lead their teams.

Obviously there's players like Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Dirk who all could/can, but Duncan and Shaq breaking down (please take with a grain of salt), missing time and becoming just great players. Garnett and Kobe had each taken a step back in team success, despite great individual success. Wade and LeBron are still incomplete players and struggle against the best teams (LeBron more than Wade, but Wade averged around 6+ TO's per game without Shaq in the lineup) and Dirk has a stigma surrounding him.

So Nash sneaks in, mainly because his teams always seem to do very well, no matter what. They exceed expectations, break, set records and always compete...

He's not at their level, but when their level isn't exactly "All-Time" any longer, than they have no one to blame but themselves.

There's no line of All-timers anymore. You once had player like Magic, Bird, Thomas, Jordan, Barkley, Drexler, Pippen, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Stockton...

Now we have LeBron, Dirk, Iverson, Kobe, Amare, McGrady, Wade, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nash...

Just about every player is better from the 1980-1992 era than the 1993-2005 era.

This current era, save for Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and possibly James just don't add up.

Therefore, under the scope of history, you can't expect this era's MVP to always measure up.

[Darrin]

I think it stems from the lack of legit superstars.

Think about it. Today's superstar cons utes the likes of McGrady, Pierce, Ming, Carter, etc...

None of them are complete. Not of them are that great. None of them ever have much playoff success. None of them can individually lead their teams.

Obviously there's players like Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Dirk who all could/can, but Duncan and Shaq breaking down (please take with a grain of salt), missing time and becoming just great players. Garnett and Kobe had each taken a step back in team success, despite great individual success. Wade and LeBron are still incomplete players and struggle against the best teams (LeBron more than Wade, but Wade averged around 6+ TO's per game without Shaq in the lineup) and Dirk has a stigma surrounding him.

So Nash sneaks in, mainly because his teams always seem to do very well, no matter what. They exceed expectations, break, set records and always compete...

He's not at their level, but when their level isn't exactly "All-Time" any longer, than they have no one to blame but themselves.

There's no line of All-timers anymore. You once had player like Magic, Bird, Thomas, Jordan, Barkley, Drexler, Pippen, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Stockton...

Now we have LeBron, Dirk, Iverson, Kobe, Amare, McGrady, Wade, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nash...

Just about every player is better from the 1980-1992 era than the 1993-2005 era.

This current era, save for Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and possibly James just don't add up.

Therefore, under the scope of history, you can't expect this era's MVP to always measure up.

Like him or not, Kobe Bryant led his team to an eleven game improvement over last season. His shooting percentage went up from .433 to .450 in a season that he bested his best season average by 5.4 points a night. He's led his team in scoring in the NBA Finals, and he's been an All-Star MVP. The problem is, he's crediting with breaking up the Lakers and people haven't forgotten about his sexual assault case. I think this is ridiculous considering that Michael Jordan was paying off a former mistress until 2002.

Bryant played in 121 playoff games and won 3 rings. He was discredited for not getting it done without Shaq. Well, here he sits in the playoffs, his team tied in a first-round series and he's had one of the best scoring seasons in a generation. I think the fact we hate out superstars is the difference.

I think the fact that we're at the generational crossroads is another concern.

Allen Iverson is 32-years-old.
Lebron James is 21-years-old.
Chris Bosh is 22-years-old.
Shaquille O'Neal is 34-years-old.
Dwight Howard 20-years-old.
Tim Duncan is 30-years-old.

The last time the NBA went through a period like this was probably in 1997-1999. When KG, Duncan, and Rasheed were the promise of the league while Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon were battling it out for Conference les. The Dream Team was the toast of the league, even at ages 35-40.

The difference is, our old guys aren't winning. Chris Webber was in studio today explaining why he and Allen Iverson haven't been immature. I think the NBA will look back at this era (1995-2005) and wonder why are superstars were such asses.

- Jerry Stackhouse demanding half the price of Jordan's 31-million-a-year contract.
- Allen Iverson lamenting at a press conference about 'practice.'
- Ron Artest rushing into the stands and challenging coaches to fights.
- Latrell Sprewell choking his coach.
- Isaiah Rider.
- Vince Carter taking games 'off.'
- Tracy McGrady taking games 'off.'
- The Portland "Jail"Blazers.
- Ruben Patterson and Kobe Bryant's sexual assault cases.
- Vin Baker's alcoholism.
- Bonzi Wells being banned from an arena.
- Steve Francis demanding a trade from Vancouver, pouting over losing Cuttino Mobley.
- Stephon Marbury declaring he's the "best point guard ever," demanding a trade from Minnesota because he "didn't like the city."
- Shawn Kemp's battle with cocaine.
- Shaq-Kobe feud.

We didn't just lose guys to injury (Alonzo Mourning, Larry Johnson, Tom Gugliotta, Penny Hardaway, Chris Webber, Kerry Kittles, Jayson Williams), we started losing talent and goodwill because it sells to sensationalize, and the NBA players have taken the at ude that all press is good press.

Once you've whittled down the pool, of course it looks like they had more talent. They didn't; it's just we didn't wait for them to up, we were actually saddened when they did. I mean, Kemp is in one of the worst fights you can have as a person and fans have signs like "Kemp's my dad" in the stands. If it didn't sell, the amoral media would lay off.

We want our athletes to be perfect, and somehow we can forgive Charles Barkley for demanding a trade, but not Vince Carter. We forgave Jordan for cheating on his wife, but not Bryant. We have an at ude that our superstars aren't what they used to be.

[Obstructed_View]

This current era, save for Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and possibly James just don't add up.

In other words, either Lebron or Kobe should have been MVP, and Shaq should have won last year. I completely agree.

[Obstructed_View]

We forgave Jordan for cheating on his wife, but not Bryant. We have an at ude that our superstars aren't what they used to be.

Jordan's girlfriend wasn't bent over a chair screaming. Terrible comparison.

[JMarkJohns]

In other words, either Lebron or Kobe should have been MVP, and Shaq should have won last year. I completely agree.

yeah.... that's not what I said at all, considering the NBA does not require an MVP be an All-Time great.



As for Kobe, that's not fair. As far as I know, the only thing you have to base that opinion upon is the word of a known easy lay who also suffered from a few mental breakdown before the incident and who was stupid enough to have sex in the hours after her alledged rape, then wear dirty underwear to her rape kit examination, thus building the defense's assessment that any potential "sexual damage" was consistant with constant sex with multiple partners over a 2/3 day period.

Remember, she backed out of testimony, then took the money and ran come time for the civil trial.

I can't claim any confidence in her claims. Not one bit.

[conqueso]

Jordan's girlfriend wasn't bent over a chair screaming. Terrible comparison.

woah...

[NCaliSpurs]

The Suns getting owned by the Lakers is a validating point to many arguments here.

Will this be the first time ever that an MVP doesn't get his trophy at a game?

[NCaliSpurs]

First round elimination forum.

[Dre_7]

The Suns getting owned by the Lakers is a validating point to many arguments here.

Will this be the first time ever that an MVP doesn't get his trophy at a game?

And hes a back to back MVP that wont get his trophy in a game.

[NCaliSpurs]

But you don't have to go far in the playoffs if you are going to be an MVP.

It is just embarassing if you don't, apparently.

[lefty]

Congratulations, Steve Nash

[Kool Bob Love]

Lakers paying nash in 2014. LMAO!!!!!