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Hold up...I'm still trying to find where "get the over yourself" is in any of the religious materials.
There has to be pennance for that stance somewhere?
I don't give a flying what you believe, Smegma. When people of religion can extend me the same courtesy in everyday life and stop trying to shove the laws handed down by a bunch of shepards down MY throat, I'll be amazed, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hold up...I'm still trying to find where "get the over yourself" is in any of the religious materials.
There has to be pennance for that stance somewhere?
That's contradictory to one of the central truths of Christianity in which Jesus Christ calls for his disciples to spread the "good news" (evangelize) and to go into all the Nations and preach the Gospel (Good News) to all men even unto the ends of the earth.
1. The imaginations of man are evil from his youth on up, = Mankind are sinners.
2. The wages (penalty) of sin are/is death.
3. By dying Christ paid the penalty for mans sins
4. We must accept and acknowledge the sacrifice he made and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (that's easy).
5. Being redeemed from eternal damnation and given eternal life through Jesus Christ = Good News.
6. EVANGELISM Those that have received this good news are compelled to pass it along to others so they too have the opportunity to receive eternal life.
Back to the thread le; I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God but some of it, although true, should not be taken literally.
Taking it literally is a side issue to its central theme and is not a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.
I understand why Christians do what they do, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that its a good course of action.
Could it be that they are surpassing your standards because they teach secular science? I have yet to hear about a modern country with high education standards that allows religion to be taught in public education.Why is every other country surpassing our academic standards??? Sadly students don't care anymore... they're more concerned about trivialities such as popularity or who is the first to own a car... or drink alcoholic beverages.... Many parents don't care anymore either...
So then you get parents that do want their children growing with some sense of moral fabric and what does the liberal media do?? Slam them for bigoted interference... right..
Moral you say? Why is your moral better than anyone else's? Religion should be kept aside from state, politics, law and education.
If you wanted to look like comprehensive, that post has erased that chance. You blame moral relativism, where I blame the economic system, lack of reason and secular education, belief in partisan views of the world like religion, race or nationality, authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth. A kid growing without any chance to progress in his life is violence.
I disagree. Humans decide their lives and the way they want to live them. Where you see a "standard", I see collective agreements about what is right and wrong, produced inside a democratic society which decides the way they want to live. God deciding how humans should live sounds awfully close to the Taliban.
No God or authority helds me acountable...I'm acountable to myself and other human beings as equals.
And the last paragraph is nonsense. The worst crimes against humanity were commited by genocides who thought that their had the moral right to dictate how things should work.
And if suddenly we go back to join the State and Church again, we won't be a free society, we would have became like the Muslim extremists. We would have the moral dogma of the Dark Ages, but with the firepower of the Modern Age. Nice, can't wait for it.
And the difference lies within that the West is a secular, democratic, plural society, while most of the Islam is stuck in the Middle Ages where faith is above anything else. Some religious organizations in the West are thriving to go back to that point, and that is what is so upsetting. They try to evangelize, to spread their reactionary message.
Ancient Greek philosophy, Roman Law, Naturalism, Enlightment, all the Secular Sciences, have made greater contributions to progress and modern societies than religion. Religion was important for social structure once, but not now.
I do remember your study... I also remember questioning the methods used... and without being disrespectful... you just can't build conclusions based on your interpretation on who was or wasn't a Christian... It's not as easy as say.. pointing out an atheist who has professed no belief in any GOD or 'higher being'. A Christian is known by his 'fruit'... attributes of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... among others... Unless your study included the scope of their lives in order to assess the genuiness of their faith... then the whole study was inherently flawed. It was only as good as that initial basis.
And yes, I agree, the moral education of children should be conducted at home.... but it goes the other way too... who has decided that school authorities were not to be questioned? That their influence on our children on matters non-academic was not to be questioned... But that's not what this thread is about.
With regards to your other comments, we as humans will always fall short of GOD's standard... but the amazing thing is that GOD's grace and forgiveness supercedes our shortcomings... HIS LOVE has no bounds for those willing to accept HIM. Therefore, to 'run the good race' should be the marathon of our lives... and if we should stumble, HE will be there to help us up and to help us keep going forward without looking back (as in without letting our past rob us the joy of our present or our future)...
And sure, about 60% of the population could probably also claim to have never "murdered, raped, stolen, plundered etc..." but that in and of itself would not cons ute living by GOD's standard. Have you ever cheated on a test, or tried to get away with credits or deductions on your taxes? Perhaps maybe someone gave you more change than was required... Did you ever let your anger get out of control... or even hold a simple grudge? Did you ever let alcohol ever get the better of you? There are countless of cir stances for which we are held accountable before GOD that wouldn't necessarily warrant a prison term... these things should nevertheless 'bite' at our conscience and the decision to follow through with our actions is still every bit our own... the fact that some of these actions don't cause remorse for some people goes to show that a relativistic view of morality is a dangerous thing.... and unfortunately, our society has adopted this relativistic view.... too much tolerance is not always a good thing.
Last edited by hegamboa; 05-31-2006 at 08:50 AM.
I told you. They're here to shove it down our collective throats. Hari-Christians, and we can't even avoid airports.
Go and re read your responce instead of getting all excited, start cursing and replying in caps. You said people should interpret the Bible in a ceratain way . . . the way you interpret the Bible, which is obviously bull *.
How about I interpret the Bible the way I want and you interpret it the way you want, and we can both go our merry ways.
Oh, by the way, you changed the word "should" for the words "I think" which proves you have realized of your mistake.
* Bull is you telling me how to interpret the Bible.
Last edited by smeagol; 05-29-2006 at 10:08 PM.
Hey erratic, if you did not understand my post, or why I posted it, please refrain from responding.
It makes you look stupid.
You read it of your own free will and you define that as having something shoved down your throat?
I read what you wrote. I interpret that as I will never be left alone by Evangelicals. Tell me different. Tell me it isn't your duty to recruit.
Look, I clearly wrote in that post that I THOUGHT people should, I NEVER said people SHOULD period. I'm not asking you to change anything nor am I trying to cram my beliefs down your throat. In fact seems to me that it is you who doesn't like the way I think and feel inclined to change my mind, which you have done a piss poor job at anyway.
I didn't change anything in that post ANYTHING, and I made no mistake, you're the one getting all worked up simply because I don't think the way you do. You know, with every post you're beginning to sound more and more like the typical Christian, its either "think my way, or the highway" huh? Well guess what, I think the bible is fiction, yes F I C T I O N my friend, and until you come here and show clear evidence to the contrary, other than that "you have to have faith crap" I'll still think is fiction.Oh, by the way, and you changed the word "should" for the words "I think" which proves you have realized of your mistake.
* Bull is you telling me how to interpret the Bible.
By the way, you seriously need to get over yourself, nobody was telling you how to interpret the bible, I was expressing what I thought, you do what the you want... no pun intended.
I was replying to Manny and you read my reply, that's a hardcore indoctrinating technique for sure.
Our commission as stated before is to spread the Gospel. It's a commission given by Jesus Christ so if you feel He's shoving something down your throat when his followers are obeying his command then perhaps you should take that up with Him.Tell me different. Tell me it isn't your duty to recruit.
If you were relying to Manny, why was my quote in your reply? Nice try.I was replying to Manny and you read my reply, that's a hardcore indoctrinating technique for sure.
You read it of your own free will and you define that as having something shoved down your throat?
That is untrue. You only call Christians those who fit your criteria, not the Church's. If you only take how was the person according to religion, Torquemada, Bernardo Gui, Cromwell, Pinochet, Hitler, Franco, Cortés, Mussolini, etc. were good Christians. So, relativism is necessary nowadays, even in religion. Otherwise if you took the bible as a completely rigid set of rules, you shouldn't post here, own a computer, use electric power or argue about religion (because you aren't a qualified member of the Church).
Again, you are confused. You believe that Christianity stands for all those things, when as any historical movement, it isn't that simple. Of course, you post from a religious point of view, which means taking the moral high ground, and taking your own view as the "good", and anything else as "evil". And if some actions don't cause remorse, it isn't about a dangerous relativistic view, I'm far more concerned about dogmatic views which see anything that is different to them as a danger that should be terminated, whether it's by evangelization or using other methods...
^^^Manny's QuoteQuote=Manny: The world will be a better place when people learn to keep their religous beliefs to themselves
[QUOTE =jochhejaam]
That's contradictory to one of the central truths of Christianity in which Jesus Christ calls for his disciples to spread the "good news" (evangelize) and to go into all the Nations and preach the Gospel (Good News) to all men even unto the ends of the earth.
1. The imaginations of man are evil from his youth on up, = Mankind are sinners.
2. The wages (penalty) of sin are/is death.
3. By dying Christ paid the penalty for mans sins
4. We must accept and acknowledge the sacrifice he made and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (that's easy).
5. Being redeemed from eternal damnation and given eternal life through Jesus Christ = Good News.
6. EVANGELISM Those that have received this good news are compelled to pass it along to others so they too have the opportunity to receive eternal life.
Back to the thread le; I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God but some of it, although true, should not be taken literally.
Taking it literally is a side issue to its central theme and is not a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.[/QUOTE]
^^^jochhejaam's Quote replying to Manny
Manny's quote followed by my reply, folowed by your whining about having Christianity shoved down your throat.
RIF
Right.... and I'm the one that's confused... Hitler??? Franco??? Good Christians...??? Now I see where your confusion lies... but let me straighten something out for you... they were never Christians... "Not everyone who invokes my name and calls me Lord will inherit the Kingdom of God"
BTW what does the bible have to do with computer use... I think you are mistaking me for an Amish?
Who is taking a moral high-ground??? I simply stated the guidelines by which I live my life by... and BTW I quoted the scripture, so they are not imaginary guidelines...
And yes, your concerns are well rooted... but they are not related to the true Christian... they are related to the quasi-Christian.
Ah yes. Another quite discussion on religion.
Zzzzzzz...Zzzzzzzz....
Wake me when its over.
I'd been meaning to respond to this post but I had to power down the computer last night due to lightning storms...
I was educated in this country... and if I'm saying that the standards were crappy that's because I saw that the emphasis was being placed on other things that were not academic in nature (sports, clubs, parties etc...) and that the students were more concerned about trying to 'fit-in' than on learning... If I was able to overcome those odds, it was because my parents instilled a sense of responsibility within me... I was told that what I did in school would heavily weigh on my future as a professional... As it turned out I was the first Hispanic Valedictorian in a predominantly 'white' school. I was threatened, but that only motivated me to excel even more... To date, I own the highest grade-point average that the school has ever seen. I am proud of my accomplishments, yes... but to say that the low standards observed in our public school system are due to the teaching of religion is totally off. I was the one guy who was swimming against the current... and look how I turned out (from an academic perspective). As an off-note; most of the people I knew from a local K-12 Christian Academy had better grades than many of my peers... I would re-think that perspective.
Besides, if you haven't followed the news.... THEY don't allow the teaching of ID in schools... Not even, when our country's President is a proponent of said curriculae.
Again, I never claimed to have the moral high-ground, I simply stated the guidelines by which I live my life...
ComprehensiveIf you wanted to look like comprehensive, that post has erased that chance. You blame moral relativism, where I blame the economic system, lack of reason and secular education, belief in partisan views of the world like religion, race or nationality, authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth. A kid growing without any chance to progress in his life is violence.
I believe your definition of moral relativism and mine differ... your next section highlights the difference... and the reason why I believe the degradation rate of our society's standards leads to a dangerous outlook.
But to address this comment above... certainly, many of those issues are problems affecting our society... you act like I'm oblivious to their effects. Nevertheless, if no one safeguards the standard by which our society is accountable to itself then brace yourself for more of the same struggles.... 'authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth etc...' Who governs the powerful if they are the ones making all the rules?
What I just highlighted defines moral relativism.... What? you don't honestly believe that the standards that we live by today are the same as those our grandparents' lived by two generations ago?
Again, use to be that extra-marital sex was considered a wrong... now kids are having sex at a younger mean age... and our society sees this as normal.
The relativism doesn't stem from comparing say my standards to yours... or the standards of person A to the standards of person B. The relativism stems from a comparison of the prevalent standards of our society across its generational history... some changes are good (weeding out racism) but many changes are bad.
With regards to the Taliban comment... For the umpteenth time... I'm not advocating for the union of Church and State.... so that comment is way off-base. GOD has set my personal standard in HIS Word. I live by it, but I'm also governed by the law of the land (traffic regulations, taxes, laws and bylaws etc...).
Yes Christians do make a push to for certain regulations to align themselves with biblical standards... but isn't this a Democratic country??? Last time I checked it was. If you don't like it, then you also have a right to push for whatever legislation you wish... and in the end the public opinion will decide... There are some laws I like and some laws I dislike... either way I have to live by them or with them... that's the way it works.
You all act as if our Cons utional right to shape our laws were a travesty... and yet use the same means to push for your own agendas... You can't have it both ways.
You are en led to that belief... But I tell you this, if none of the other things on that list would cause you to have remorse, then from a business vantage point I would be concerned if you were my business partner.
And that last comment could very well read;
The worst crimes against humanity were commited by power hungry people who thought that they had the moral right to dictate how things should work.
... and still be every bit true...
Again, your basis is wrong simply because you've assumed I'm advocating in favor of a theocracy...
Greek philosophies from whom? Socrates? Aristotle? Plato? Do you believe their works are true?
The Romans also enslaved children and boys as their armies' sex slaves... yeah great progress there....
Secular Science is not a movement... as much as you may wish that to be the case... It is simply the study of our natural world, and as it turns out to be Adam was the first scientist... considering he was given the task to name every creature on earth.
No movement was or is perfect. Human imperfection takes care of that and makes that fact.
Last edited by hegamboa; 05-30-2006 at 11:33 AM.
He's right. I forgot who said it. Something like "commision to spread the gospel". This is a tax free, money making venture thats preys, prays, praise on those with no where else to turn. False hope. Thats the promise.
Pray for little johnny's recovery! Opps, little johnny didn't make it. God decided it was johnny's time to die. So whats with all the praying if it's out of your hands?
Oh darn... I must have been duped!!! Woe is me!!!
Here's some food for thought... Not one atheist resides in .
wow... you were making great points and then you had to go and add this last part
Last edited by MaNuMaNiA; 05-30-2006 at 11:52 AM.
lol good stuff. I have been born and raised a Christian, but I can't help feeling that way sometimes. Not only that, but when something good happens to a Christian, it was God doing them a favor, when something bad happens to a Christian, it was God teaching them a lesson. When something good happens to a non-believer, it was free will and luck working, when something bad happens, Gods giving them what they deserve. So we only have free will if we are a bad person getting good things. Any other scenario we are the great puppets.
wow... you were making great points and then you had to go and ass this last part
My bad... I got a little carried away... I was tired I guess.
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