the hits just keep coming: Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Worsens Terrorism Threat

[RandomGuy]

The full text of the released do ent is here:

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/De..._Judgments.pdf

I will get into why Yoni's post is 80% BS later. This will be gooood.

[boutons_]

"why it is so critical to win in Iraq."

If it's so critical to win in Iraq (I fully agree that it is), why aren't Repugs putting in enough troops to win?

It's obvious, and has been even before the invasion to everybody honest and serious, that 140K troops isn't enough.

If it's so critical to win in Iraq, why aren't the red-state dubya-electors having the courage of their voting convictions and enlisting in the 100s of 1000s to go assure this critical win?

"if you're going to claim that the war in Iraq is creating more terrorists and, as such, we should withdraw"

Trying to frame the logic and phrasing is always profoundly dishonest from the right wingers. Yoni is a ing joker.

Here's another, completely sensible logic which is more honest:

"if you're going to claim that the war in Iraq is creating more terrorists, then, after you've made the strategic mistake of starting the war/inciting terrorists unnecessarily, then you absolutely must win that war, and keep it won."

... which means putting in 400K troops to stop the violence, then paying 10s or 100s of $Bs for reconstruction, then stationing several 100K US troops in Iraq for a decade or more to make sure the country stays stable and peaceful. All the while, the real state-terrorism countries of Syria and Iran will be doing their damndest to make for the US troops, to say nothing of al-Qaida.

The Repugs aren't doing what it takes to win the Iraq war, and they won't do it, either.

The Repugs are losing Iraq, not the Dems, not the war dissenters.

you're doing a heckuva job, dubya.

[RandomGuy]

CLICHÉ ALERT--------------CLICHÉ ALERT--------------------------- CLICHÉ ALERT
“Liberal media distorts all the good things Bush administration does.”

Yoni would have you believe that somehow the AP report is absolutely baseless and inaccurate. I have given the link to the declassified do ent, read it and then read the AP article. I really don’t see that the AP article is anything less than forthcoming. It is actually pretty fair and balanced, and provides some meaningful context.

Yoni would not be satisfied with anything less than cheerleading for the administration.

Emblematic of Yoni’s partisanship and general level of BS is in the following:

“The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.”

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.

The war in Iraq has become a "cause celebre" for Islamic extremists, breeding deep resentment of the U.S. that probably will get worse before it gets better, federal intelligence analysts conclude in a report at odds with President Bush's portrayal of a world growing safer.
In the bleak report, declassified and released Tuesday on Bush's orders, the nation's most veteran analysts conclude that despite serious damage to the leadership of al-Qaida, the threat from Islamic extremists has spread both in numbers and in geographic reach.

Everything in the AP report is backed up almost word for word by the assessment.

The only thing not in the assessment is the “at odds with President Bush’s portrayal of a world growing safer”.

One does not have to look far to find statements from the president saying that the “world is safer”. We can safely conclude that this too is accurate.

What Yoni takes very great pains and many paragraphs to gloss over is that the balance of the do ent really does contradict the administration’s spin on how things are going.

He then goes on to diminish its importance. At the risk of bringing up the “h” word, does anyone else see the hypocrisy here?

Does anyone truly doubt that if the assessment had gone the other way, Yoni would be saying exactly the opposite?

[RandomGuy]

I think the time has come for the real "cut and run" decision.

Is the damage caused by staying worse than the damage caused by leaving?

Before I weigh in, anybody want to give a brief "gut" answer?

[boutons_]

"time has come for the real "cut and run" decision."

I fully disagree. The Repugs and red-staters absolutely have to win in Iraq, and they better get 400K troops over there ASAP and get on with it. Losing Iraq is NOT an option.

Leaving Iraq now or soon would see the sectarian civil war explode so much as to make the current civil war looks like target practice. Iran, Syria would pour in support, and al Qaida would pour in foreign terrorist to sets up camp. THEN we'd have a real threat from Iraq to US interests, since that kind of Shiite Iraq would be a real threat to all the Sunni Gulf states, to say nothing of the threat to Israel.

[RandomGuy]

"time has come for the real "cut and run" decision."

I fully disagree. The Repugs and red-staters absolutely have to win in Iraq, and they better get 400K troops over there ASAP and get on with it. Losing Iraq is NOT an option.

Leaving Iraq now or soon would see the sectarian civil war explode so much as to make the current civil war looks like target practice. Iran, Syria would pour in support, and al Qaida would pour in foreign terrorist to sets up camp. THEN we'd have a real threat from Iraq to US interests, since that kind of Shiite Iraq would be a real threat to all the Sunni Gulf states, to say nothing of the threat to Israel.

Hypothetical:

How bad would it have to get in Iraq for you to make the call to go?

[clambake]

My "gut" feeling is we have to stay if only for the innocent who have lost family members and now live in fear on a minute by minute basis. We owe them for having a president that lied to his people to justify a war that should never have been fought. We owe the families that have and will continue to bury their sons and daughters for the goals of this asshole that claims to be a "War President". We can't let all these wasted lives be an asterisk to what will amount to the biggest blunder in Americas history.

[Yonivore]

My "gut" feeling is we have to stay if only for the innocent who have lost family members and now live in fear on a minute by minute basis. We owe them for having a president that lied to his people to justify a war that should never have been fought. We owe the families that have and will continue to bury their sons and daughters for the goals of this asshole that claims to be a "War President". We can't let all these wasted lives be an asterisk to what will amount to the biggest blunder in Americas history.

I know that you and ChumpDumper and many others will go to your graves believing this is the biggest atrocity ever committed by a U. S. President.

I happen to believe history will show this as the turning point in world history when the last of the great disputes between civilizations was at least begun to be resolved...after decades of it festering under the surface and centuries of it being fought on the battlefields.

I think it'd be cool to have this all done before I die, but I doubt it will be. I do think we'll see a peaceful and democratic Iraq. I also think we'll see a decline in terrorism and a general rejection of Islamic extremism by the average Muslim on the street.

I also believe there are generations of Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites, as well as those who just plain opposed Saddam Hussein, and whose families were tortured and murdered by the hundreds of thousands who disagree with your assessment of the situation.

[ChumpDumper]

I know that you and ChumpDumper and many others will go to your graves believing this is the biggest atrocity ever committed by a U. S. President.

Nah, it was a horrible lapse in judgment and a missed opportunity.

I happen to believe history will show this as the turning point in world history when the last of the great disputes between civilizations was at least begun to be resolved.

And Bush helped to set back that process by years if not decades.

I do think we'll see a peaceful and democratic Iraq.

I think we'll see a peaceful and democratic Kurdistan and genocide and strife elsewhere in Iraq until the opposing ethnic groups are seperated or killed off.

[boutons_]

"for you to make the call to go"

For me to go personally? Technically, I'm too old.

But I wouldn't serve dubya and the Repugs anway. No ing way. If there is a draft, I'm going to advise my kids to disappear.

Ideologically, the red-state voters voted in dubya, they can send their kids to the slaughter.

In fact, I think the Dems should push their own "Repug voter registration drive" such that voting Repug means your kids get drafted first for phony Repug wars, since obviously red-state kids don't want to volunteer to fight in Iraq in sufficient numbers to win Iraq. I'd like to see dubya's two girls in full Iraq camo, driving humvees and risking their comfortable lives and/or pretty limbs and faces for dubya's bull war.

[Yonivore]

Nah, it was a horrible lapse in judgment and a missed opportunity.

Well, color me shocked. That's certainly a more conciliatory characterization than I can ever recall you posting before.

And Bush helped to set back that process by years if not decades.

There had been no progress in the process in decades. The last positive development was when Egypt made peace with Israel. It's all been downhill -- and swept under the rug -- since then.

I think we'll see a peaceful and democratic Kurdistan and genocide and strife elsewhere in Iraq until the opposing ethnic groups are seperated or killed off.

Okay, I can respect that opinion. However, I think you're wrong. I think we'll stay in Iraq until that probability has passed.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree it's all been downhill since then.

I think we'll stay in Iraq until that probability has passed.

But that's not our stated goal.

[Yonivore]

I agree it's all been downhill since then.But that's not our stated goal.

It's certainly one of them.

That we will remain in Iraq until the Iraqis are able to provide for their own security. I think, at that point, genocide, civil war, or ethnic strife will be a more remote possibility.

I think you have too little faith in the ability of the Iraqis to find common ground and compromise on differences that only serve to perpetuate their misery.

[ChumpDumper]

It's certainly one of them.

Nope. it's leaving when we think the Iraqis are ready to take over.

That we will remain in Iraq until the Iraqis are able to provide for their own security. I think, at that point, genocide, civil war, or ethnic strife will be a more remote possibility.

I think the Iraqi security forces will be a major perpetrator of the ethnic cleansing.

I think you have too little faith in the ability of the Iraqis to find common ground and compromise on differences that only serve to perpetuate their misery.

I think you have no perspective on how deeply seeded ethnic disputes manifest themselves on a large scale. One would think the Sudanese and Rwandans would find common ground too.

[Yonivore]

Nope. it's leaving when we think the Iraqis are ready to take over.

And, when would that be?

I think the Iraqi security forces will be a major perpetrator of the ethnic cleansing.

Well, that's why you're a nobody poster on an insignificant forum and not in control of our foreign policy. And, thank God for that.

I think the Iraqi forces will remember (and be reminded often) of just how quickly we toppled the previous regime and be sufficiently admonished against trying to pull their own genocide before we decide to leave.

I think you have no perspective on how deeply seeded ethnic disputes manifest themselves on a large scale. One would think the Sudanese and Rwandans would find common ground too.

Maybe they haven't been properly motivated to find common ground.

[ChumpDumper]

And, when would that be?

You tell me. I never hear about total pacification plans. I hear about standing down when they stand up.

Well, that's why you're a nobody poster on an insignificant forum and not in control of our foreign policy. And, thank God for that.

There have been many reports that support this position, my fellow nobody poster not in control of our foreign policy.

I think the Iraqi forces will remember (and be reminded often) of just how quickly we toppled the previous regime and be sufficiently admonished against trying to pull their own genocide before we decide to leave.

I said it will happen after we leave, genius. And is it our spotless record of doggedly stopping genocides wherever they occur scare them into refraining from it?

Maybe they haven't been properly motivated to find common ground.

Well, we certainly didn't give a about them, did we? So much for the white hat.

[xrayzebra]

Okay, all you fine folks that thinks President Bush has screwed up on his
policy. What is the dimm-o-craps policy that is going to cut us some slack?

Come on, the only thing I have heard is "cut and run" now, what did the
report say about that. I read: that if we win there it is going to demoralize
the AQ group.

I also read: If we cut and run it is going to energize them.

And I am still waiting on your "BIG" plan to take care of all the terrorist
that was created.

You folks are so full of yourself. You act like what you are: a group
circle jerk, the village idiots who run thru the streets hollering: the sky
is falling and it is all Bush's fault.

[ChumpDumper]

The thing is, there really weren't any alternatives once we invaded. We can't send in any more troops without a draft and we can't cut and run. We're going to get out as soon face-savingly possible; that's the only real option.

[Yonivore]

The thing is, there really weren't any alternatives once we invaded. We can't send in any more troops without a draft and we can't cut and run. We're going to get out as soon face-savingly possible; that's the only real option.

Okay, then answer this ChumpDumper.

We now know that al Qaeda was escaping to Iraq after we invaded Afghanistan.

If we had not invaded Iraq, what would have become of those who had gone there?

[ChumpDumper]

We also know they escaped to Pakistan.

When did we invade them?

We now know that al Qaeda was escaping to Iraq after we invaded Afghanistan.

And why couldn't we make preventing the escape a priority?

[Yonivore]

We also know they escaped to Pakistan.

When did we invade them?

Let's focus. What about Iraq?

[ChumpDumper]

Let's focus.

I am focused.

On the terrorists.

On Osama.

The fact you aren't says it all.

[xrayzebra]

The thing is, there really weren't any alternatives once we invaded. We can't send in any more troops without a draft and we can't cut and run. We're going to get out as soon face-savingly possible; that's the only real option.

Then what is the problem with supporting YOU COUNTRY? Is it wrong to win
something that is going to keep you and your loved ones alive. Or is
telling everyone your government is wrong and you don't support them. It
is your question to answer. You know what my answer is.

[Yonivore]

I am focused.

On the terrorists.

On Osama.

The fact you aren't says it all.

What should we have done with the al Qaeda terrorists streaming into Iraq after we invaded Afghanistan? Should we have just ignored it?

Don't worry, I'll get to Pakistan.

[ChumpDumper]

Then what is the problem with supporting YOU COUNTRY?

Go us. There it's supported. Feel better?

Is it wrong to win something that is going to keep you and your loved ones alive.

Win what?

Or is telling everyone your government is wrong and you don't support them.

Now supporting "YOU COUNTRY" and the decisions and policies of my government are two different things. Were you a traitor when you didn't agree with Clinton? you, hypocrite.