Can You Be A Christian and Support State Torture?

[gtownspur]

HERE, this time i didn't give Random an excuse to ignore my valid points because i used large font and bolded the whole post one time.



THis is my argument on Torture as it pertains to Christianity!

Let me express my reservations on the whole religous angle of this argument first then i'll move on to the more mechanical and ethical aspects of my view on torture.

First of all the United States is a governmental en y which has a purpose rather different than you and I do as a christian.

The role of Government is to protect it's citizenry from endangerment, therefore as to where as a christian, Christ compels us through paul's epistle to "Make you're body a living sacrifice unto God", as well as "turn the other cheek", this is christ's instruction for daily living to be executed by individuals and not nations.

Christ is silent on the role of government, you got to remember, he came to set up a spiritual kingdom and not an earthly one. The book of Romans in one of it's passages states that God, the Father, gives the government the right to execute and protect.

If we are to make "Christ the sunday school hallmark card persona" an example of shunning torture, and not the writ in it's entirety, there are countless other practices and proffesions christians should abstain from:

1.Doctors at abortion clinics

2.Military Service

3. Law enforcement

4.Espionage

etc....

Torture done in the interest of the state to protect it's citizenry, and not of personal gratification is just.

For you; being the agent of the govt, trying to extract information, are not acting on your behalf, but on the will of the state.

Repeat this with me.... "The state is not relegated to private restrictions as so put forth in the Gospels."

Now, before you ever type another token "turn the other cheek" verse, be responsible and determine yourself wether christ was referring to nation states.

[gtownspur]

Now here is the second half of my argument.


This pertains to the justification of torture in our prosecution of the War On Terror.

Now unto the ethical and mechanical aspect.

Random Guy, do us all a favor and remind yourself that our political and practical actions in the war on terror, used in a positive way as to show goodwill, to change the hearts of potential recruits for terrorism, is useless.


To a bunch of people who are already indoctrinated in believing that allah wills everything to the advantage of the spread of Islam. You're humanistic practices will only make you look weak.

Torturing, or not torturing, Strong or weak, liberal administration or Republican, wether you grant cons utional priveleges or not, none of this will decrease the recruitment of terrorism.

Let me ask you, if Bush would have used softer language, and goodwill efforts to get an extreme conservative to sit on the high court, would all his goodwill, good times fun and rock and roll antics make you support his nomination?

Therefore Islamofanatical extremist who are on the sidelines do not care that about you're delivery, but the substance.

And on substance, you are not on their side nor do you have any inclinations to advance islam for them, therefore you are standing in the way and are a threat.

It's as if we were to serve them on a silver platter and expect them to eat it. That's what it's like to go into the mideast and use humanistic approaches to wage as they see it "a war on their God, allah and his servants". Whether it be for a just cause, like afghanistan, or to you unjust(iraq), we are on sacred grounds.

The war as Islamofascist play is always to their advantage. Their rules are, "stay out of our land while we wage war from it, and stay confined to living in fear and putting up with thousands of individual terrorist to halt from killing your people. Even if you get approval from kings to come here and extract terrorist, we will tell their people that you infidels are filthy and should die for just setting foot in our territory. There is no right and wrong, but only what Allah wills. You are to stick to fighting this war always on the defensive."

My argument is not about how cruel and dedicated and fanatical they are to obtain their goal.(killing innocents, beheading school girls etc) But how they are so fanatical that anyway you deal with them, you will always be wrong because you are not under submission of allah.


Don't play this cheap card of "But our methods will recruit more terrorist" again. It's dishonest and pointless.

Now, noticed how i didn't call anyone names, so therefore please have the guevos to post a reply.

C'mon Random. I'm counting on you to change my perspective or atleast let me see where you're coming from.

[gtownspur]

I want some one to respond.

I've been waiting for hours............

[Yonivore]

You know what I found interesting about this topic is that a poster started a thread proposing that I be waterboarded for merely thinking waterboarding wasn't torture and that it was an acceptable method of extracting information.

The ironic part is that he proposed this from the position that we shouldn't be waterboarding people who have knowledge of the whereabouts and intentions of people who would, if they could, cut his head off and place it on his chest all the while they were videotaping the events for his family and nation to view.

[gtownspur]

You know what I found interesting about this topic is that a poster started a thread proposing that I be waterboarded for merely thinking waterboarding wasn't torture and that it was an acceptable method of extracting information.

The ironic part is that he proposed this from the position that we shouldn't be waterboarding people who have knowledge of the whereabouts and intentions of people who would, if they could, cut his head off and place it on his chest all the while they were videotaping the events for his family and nation to view.

Or kill his own family for him to view.

[Nbadan]

And on substance, you are not on their side nor do you have any inclinations to advance islam for them, therefore you are standing in the way and are a threat.

Someone needs to brush up on their history. The Crusades, the inquisitions, even today in Africa Christian armies kill 'infidals'. This war isn't about religion, no matter how hard you try and make it so, it's about a fraction of a number of radical islamists and whenever you capture and torture them, sooner or later, most will go home and they'll tell 10 friends and they tell 10 friends, and so on, and so on, pretty soon you have 100 new enemies. This is why we are losing the insurgent war in Iraq.

Jesus Christ was tortured by the State. You wanna rethink your logic?

[PixelPusher]

I'm not Random Guy, but I'll give it a go.

Random Guy, do us all a favor and remind yourself that our political and practical actions in the war on terror, used in a positive way as to show goodwill, to change the hearts of potential recruits for terrorism, is useless.To a bunch of people who are already indoctrinated in believing that allah wills everything to the advantage of the spread of Islam. You're humanistic practices will only make you look weak.

If their minds are, as you say, already set in stone, why should we care if they percieve us as "weak" for acting more civilized? Why should our conduct be beholding to their standards? Do they dictate our behavior now?

Torturing, or not torturing, Strong or weak, liberal administration or Republican, wether you grant cons utional priveleges or not, none of this will decrease the recruitment of terrorism.

Let me ask you, if Bush would have used softer language, and goodwill efforts to get an extreme conservative to sit on the high court, would all his goodwill, good times fun and rock and roll antics make you support his nomination?

Therefore Islamofanatical extremist who are on the sidelines do not care that about you're delivery, but the substance.

And on substance, you are not on their side nor do you have any inclinations to advance islam for them, therefore you are standing in the way and are a threat.

It's as if we were to serve them on a silver platter and expect them to eat it. That's what it's like to go into the mideast and use humanistic approaches to wage as they see it "a war on their God, allah and his servants". Whether it be for a just cause, like afghanistan, or to you unjust(iraq), we are on sacred grounds.

The war as Islamofascist play is always to their advantage. Their rules are, "stay out of our land while we wage war from it, and stay confined to living in fear and putting up with thousands of individual terrorist to halt from killing your people. Even if you get approval from kings to come here and extract terrorist, we will tell their people that you infidels are filthy and should die for just setting foot in our territory. There is no right and wrong, but only what Allah wills. You are to stick to fighting this war always on the defensive."

My argument is not about how cruel and dedicated and fanatical they are to obtain their goal.(killing innocents, beheading school girls etc) But how they are so fanatical that anyway you deal with them, you will always be wrong because you are not under submission of allah.

Don't play this cheap card of "But our methods will recruit more terrorist" again. It's dishonest and pointless.

The body of this arguement assumes the entire muslim world to be "Islamofanatical". Read the NIE report. Most muslims don't like the idea of living under Sha'ria law (sp?), but they hate foreign imperialism even more. Diplomacy is meant to win THEM, not the terrorist, to our cause. Unfortunately, our military occupation of Iraq, along with piss poor rhetoric on the part of this administration ("crusade!", "Your either with us, or you're with the terrorists!"), as well as Abu Ghraib, secret prisons, Gitmo have the effect of convincing everyday muslims that we really are at war with islam. Our "delivery" certainly matters to them. How we "deliver" democracy will make the difference in how they regard the "substance" of western democracy.

A bigger problem than the usual conflation of the Iraqi occupation with the rhetorically ruinous "War on Terror" is your conlfation of Islamofascist/Islamic Extremist/Jihadist/whatever-the- -you're-calling-them-this-week terrorists with muslims who oppose our military occupation. According to the Bush Administrations infintile binary thought process, "They're not with us, so they're with the terrorists", which forces muslims to choose sides, and many of them aren't going to side with a foreign occupier. To paraphrase a quote "It's better to be ruled by your own bad government than a good foreign government".

So obsess over fanatical terrorists all you want, my concern is the hearts and minds of muslim who are can be won over if our foreign policy is executed with more care than it has been so far. The sooner this administration realizes that THEY are the prize, not Iraqi real estate, the better.

[Nbadan]

You know what I found interesting about this topic is that a poster started a thread proposing that I be waterboarded for merely thinking waterboarding wasn't torture and that it was an acceptable method of extracting information.

The ironic part is that he proposed this from the position that we shouldn't be waterboarding people who have knowledge of the whereabouts and intentions of people who would, if they could, cut his head off and place it on his chest all the while they were videotaping the events for his family and nation to view.

I think he proposed as a way to research, through experimentation, if water-boarding really is torture and whether there are any lasting physical or phychological effects. If it's really not torture as you say, then it really shouldn't be that big of an issue now should it, so what's the stink about?

I wonder how many 'innocent people' in Baghdad have woken up with bound hands and a bullet in the back of their heads? We prefer to do our killing off camera.

[gtownspur]

I'm not Random Guy, but I'll give it a go.



If their minds are, as you say, already set in stone, why should we care if they percieve us as "weak" for acting more civilized? Why should our conduct be beholding to their standards? Do they dictate our behavior now?

First of all, thanks for being kind by responding in a civil manner.

Now with that said, i want you to realize something. The common man who administers torture and goes overboard, may do it to avenge the hatred he has for these people. But the govt, is not a personal one with a personal problem with these individual terrorist detainees, the govt is interested in obtaining all information through interrogation and at times borderline to full torture.

So to say that the terrorist dictate our dealings with information gathering because we do it out of spite, is flawed. We gather information our way because it is efficient, and if there was another way to get information through less harsh means, we'd do it.

The body of this arguement assumes the entire muslim world to be "Islamofanatical". Read the NIE report. Most muslims don't like the idea of living under Sha'ria law (sp?), but they hate foreign imperialism even more. Diplomacy is meant to win THEM, not the terrorist, to our cause. Unfortunately, our military occupation of Iraq, along with piss poor rhetoric on the part of this administration ("crusade!", "Your either with us, or you're with the terrorists!"), as well as Abu Ghraib, secret prisons, Gitmo have the effect of convincing everyday muslims that we really are at war with islam. Our "delivery" certainly matters to them. How we "deliver" democracy will make the difference in how they regard the "substance" of western democracy.


I agree with you partialy. Yet, you have failed to see that the everyday muslim is not accustomed to a free society governed by fair and equal laws. They really don't care how we detain terrorist detainees, their own govt does worse to terrorist detainees, and they fully appreciate that their govt is doing what it can to protect their assets and way of living. The everyday muslim want's the US under Islamic rule and the western world to submit to allah.

Much like Christians want to go out and accomplish the great commission, the Muslims want to go out and establish a global Islamic theocracy. It is in their Koran that they do so.

Muslims are a complicated people. Most of them believe 911 was a Zionist conspiracy, how do you think that any of your recommendations of how we prosecute the war on terror will convince them. The terrorist will twist your methods as a sign of weakness, and then the cycle starts again and those "prized people" will either remain cynical or will be emboldened to join the terrorist ranks or atleast aid and support.

There is not one little thing that we can change that will speed up the recovery of the Islamic world into the 20th century. It will take a longtime.


A bigger problem than the usual conflation of the Iraqi occupation with the rhetorically ruinous "War on Terror" is your conlfation of Islamofascist/Islamic Extremist/Jihadist/whatever-the- -you're-calling-them-this-week terrorists with muslims who oppose our military occupation. According to the Bush Administrations infintile binary thought process, "They're not with us, so they're with the terrorists", which forces muslims to choose sides, and many of them aren't going to side with a foreign occupier. To paraphrase a quote "It's better to be ruled by your own bad government than a good foreign government".

So obsess over fanatical terrorists all you want, my concern is the hearts and minds of muslim who are can be won over if our foreign policy is executed with more care than it has been so far. The sooner this administration realizes that THEY are the prize, not Iraqi real estate, the better.

[gtownspur]

Someone needs to brush up on their history. The Crusades, the inquisitions, even today in Africa Christian armies kill 'infidals'. This war isn't about religion, no matter how hard you try and make it so, it's about a fraction of a number of radical islamists and whenever you capture and torture them, sooner or later, most will go home and they'll tell 10 friends and they tell 10 friends, and so on, and so on, pretty soon you have 100 new enemies. This is why we are losing the insurgent war in Iraq.

Jesus Christ was tortured by the State. You wanna rethink your logic?

Why is this war not about religion?

It seems that you have painted the war on Terror as a "Crusade", and then as a "Power Grab".

You seem to remain inconsistent and will whip out any justification to suit your current agenda.

[ChumpDumper]

So to say that the terrorist dictate our dealings with information gathering because we do it out of spite, is flawed. We gather information our way because it is efficient, and if there was another way to get information through less harsh means, we'd do it.

There are several alternate ways.

Yet, you have failed to see that the everyday muslim is not accustomed to a free society governed by fair and equal laws. They really don't care how we detain terrorist detainees

Of course they do. Saying that the average muslim didn't care at all about Abu Gharib and could never have his/her at ude towards the US affected by that is simply wrong.

their own govt does worse to terrorist detainees

Do we not profess to be better. Does our President say "We do not torture"? Does that not affect our credibility in our foreign affairs when we try to achieve any measure of trust with those muslims who might be inclined to share our goals in the region?

The everyday muslim want's the US under Islamic rule and the western world to submit to allah.

Do you have poll results or something similar to back up this claim? Every average muslim in every nation? Including ours?

Much like Christians want to go out and accomplish the great commission, the Muslims want to go out and establish a global Islamic theocracy. It is in their Koran that they do so.

Do you consider yourself an average Christian? Are you actively seeking to accomplish the great commission right now?

Muslims are a complicated people.

Not complicated enough to keep you from making sweeping generalizations about the "average" muslim.

There is not one little thing that we can change that will speed up the recovery of the Islamic world into the 20th century. It will take a longtime.

So we should make it as bad as possible? You don't think avoiding the Abu Gharib situation may have helped one little bit?

[ChumpDumper]

Why is this war not about religion?

Sure that's part of it, but in some place like Iraq its a gross, if convenient oversimplification that only leads to more problems if followed exclusively. Painting it soley as a Judeo-Christian/Islam conflict is faulty because, well, everyone over there except the Israelis are muslim. How can you justify our nationbuilding in Iraq if according to you everyone in the country has to be against us by default?

[gtownspur]

There are several alternate ways.

If that's the case, I guess probably are intimately acquainted with those intricate elaborate techniques and you have them at your disposal. Show us these alternate information gathering techniques will you. I beg you.

Of course they do. Saying that the average muslim didn't care at all about Abu Gharib and could never have his/her at ude towards the US affected by that is simply wrong.

I guess if you're going to accuse me of using sweeping generalizations, i'd like to see the poll that accurately backs up your statement of how independent non-partisan muslims in "swing" provinces actually honestly feel about abu Gharib.

And how's one to know wether these same muslims who claim to be offended by abu gharib, already have their minds made up.

Do we not profess to be better. Does our President say "We do not torture"? Does that not affect our credibility in our foreign affairs when we try to achieve any measure of trust with those muslims who might be inclined to share our goals in the region?Do you have poll results or something similar to back up this claim? Every average muslim in every nation? Including ours?

Yes we do profess to be better. If the question is simply to "Waterboard or not To waterboard" as being the only distinction from us and them, then you need to have your mind checked. This is not an adversary who is just proverbialy holding some kind of 5th grade school girl grudge with us, this is one who wants american lives destroyed. Please, i beg you to be honest with what you are saying.

Do you consider yourself an average Christian?

Yeah, what do you want to do? Ask me out?

Are you actively seeking to accomplish the great commission right now?

No, but i'd support it. Just like many muslims would support the establishment of an Islamic govt. They wouldn't be truly devout if they didn't.

Not complicated enough to keep you from making sweeping generalizations about the "average" muslim. So we should make it as bad as possible? You don't think avoiding the Abu Gharib situation may have helped one little bit?

No, do you honestly think that eliminating torture would have made many muslims feel alot better about having an infidel army occupying their land?

[ChumpDumper]

f that's the case, I guess probably are intimately acquainted with those intricate elaborate techniques and you have them at your disposal. Show us these alternate information gathering techniques will you. I beg you.

The information is out there. Neither I nor you have anything approaching a scientific comparison between methods, so neither of us should pretend we do.

I guess if you're going to accuse me of using sweeping generalizations, i'd like to see the poll that accurately backs up your statement of how independent non-partisan muslims in "swing" provinces actually honestly feel about abu Gharib.

I have common sense on my side on that one.

And how's one to know wether these same muslims who claim to be offended by abu gharib, already have their minds made up.

I agree basing foreign policy on guesses is a bad thing. Maybe we should've asked some of these questions about these and other things before acting.

Yes we do profess to be better. If the question is simply to "Waterboard or not To waterboard" as being the only distinction from us and them, then you need to have your mind checked. This is not an adversary who is just proverbialy holding some kind of 5th grade school girl grudge with us, this is one who wants american lives destroyed. Please, i beg you to be honest with what you are saying.

Honestly, haven't we faced enemies who wanted American lives destroyed before?

Yeah, what do you want to do? Ask me out?

Don't flatter yourself.

No, but i'd support it.

But not actively. How average of you.

They wouldn't be truly devout if they didn't.

And how many are "truly devout"?

No, do you honestly think that eliminating torture would have made many muslims feel alot better about having an infidel army occupying their land?

I think that being caught in lies or half-truths like saying "we don't torture" in the face of Abu Gharib and extraordinary rendition has given the people we want to trust us less reason to do so. Do you think it has made things better?

[gtownspur]

Sure that's part of it, but in some place like Iraq its a gross, if convenient oversimplification that only leads to more problems if followed exclusively. Painting it soley as a Judeo-Christian/Islam conflict is faulty because, well, everyone over there except the Israelis are muslim. How can you justify our nationbuilding in Iraq if according to you everyone in the country has to be against us by default?

I like what you're saying, but religion does play a big part in how an Iraqi thinks. Humanistic approaches won't solve these problems immediately in the islamic world.

It will take decades of economic recovery and cultural revolutions, as well as ideals changed because of quality of life for the average muslim to care more about assimilating with the world then have the world assimalate to him.

[gtownspur]

The information is out there. Neither I nor you have anything approaching a scientific comparison between methods, so neither of us should pretend we do.I have common sense on my side on that one.I agree basing foreign policy on guesses is a bad thing. Maybe we should've asked some of these questions about these and other things before acting.Honestly, haven't we faced enemies who wanted American lives destroyed before?Don't flatter yourself.But not actively. How average of you.And how many are "truly devout"?I think that being caught in lies or half-truths like saying "we don't torture" in the face of Abu Gharib and extraordinary rendition has given the people we want to trust us less reason to do so. Do you think it has made things better?

SO now you're saying because of the simple fact that we lied about doing it, that our denial is what's causing the arabs to turn against us, and not the torturing techniques itself.

I guess muslims and liberal parents have alot in common.

"If you're having sex, atleast let us know."- feel good parent.

"If you're torturing terrorist, atleast be honest about it, we'll still love you."--average muslim.

[gtownspur]

And how many are "truly devout"?

Geez, aren't you the one that said common sense was on your side in this debate, and you are wondering wether a majority of muslim are devout in their "holy land".

Also if there were better techniques of gathering info, i'd be assured that we are already using them and if not, they've been used and are not succesful as we've were told.

So, whose to say that we waterboard all the detainees at guantonomo, or that we don't use other methods that are in the gray between torture and humane info gathering.

[ChumpDumper]

I like what you're saying, but religion does play a big part in how an Iraqi thinks. Humanistic approaches won't solve these problems immediately in the islamic world.

It will take decades of economic recovery and cultural revolutions, as well as ideals changed because of quality of life for the average muslim to care more about assimilating with the world then have the world assimalate to him.

So what are we doing in Iraq if they won't assimilate?

[ChumpDumper]

SO now you're saying because of the simple fact that we lied about doing it, that our denial is what's causing the arabs to turn against us, and not the torturing techniques itself.

I'm saying both are doing a fine job of turning muslims (not just arabs, another misunderstanding by you) against us.

[ChumpDumper]

Geez, aren't you the one that said common sense was on your side in this debate, and you are wondering wether a majority of muslim are devout in their "holy land".

That would be Saudi Arabia.

Also if there were better techniques of gathering info, i'd be assured that we are already using them and if not, they've been used and are not succesful as we've were told.

Why would you be assured? You were assured the secret prisons didn't exist, right?

So, whose to say that we waterboard all the detainees at guantonomo, or that we don't use other methods that are in the gray between torture and humane info gathering.

Indeed, who is to say?

[gtownspur]

So what are we donig in Iraq if they won't assimilate?

It's not that we're there so that they assimilate with in weeks becuase of the way we prosecute terrorist.

If you're hoping that that's what is going to change their minds, then you are selling these Iraqi's a little short.

Better infrastructure, schools, media, economy, way of life through decades of devotion in that region will ultimatley change their minds.

Right now this whole issue is being jacked up by the terrorist in these countries trying to arouse Iraqi's to overthrow the govt.

It won't work.

Many of these iraqi's don't care about the terrorist problem right now as it pertains to the safety of the united states. Nor do they care about terrorist being detained. They have to worry about living a normal life despite what other foreign infiltrators are trying to do by coming in to that region.

Many of those same iraqi's would also torture their muslim counterparts if it were to help out their nation. These iraqi's don't have the same humanistic philosophy of "we have to be better than the terrorist". They know that you have to win by brute force.

If you were to get a ranking of what truly pisses the arabs about the US.

Abu Grahib and torture would be second to last.

Support for Israel, immorality, sexual culture, perversion, etc and beliefs would out top torture.

WHile torture is the main turn off for the Europeans, it's not so for the Muslims, who live in a different world and are not honestly indignant about it.

[gtownspur]

That would be Saudi Arabia.

And Palestine, and Turkey, and other places. Islam has many holy and sacred lands that they claim. Even Jerusalem.Why would you be assured? You were assured the secret prisons didn't exist, right?
Indeed, who is to say?

[gtownspur]

So what are we doing in Iraq if they won't assimilate?

You didn't bother to read the second sentence to which you qouted from me. It awnsers your q.

[ChumpDumper]

Better infrastructure, schools, media, economy, way of life through decades of devotion in that region will ultimatley change their minds.

We'll be there for decades?

Many of these iraqi's don't care about the terrorist problem right now as it pertains to the safety of the united states.

I would say that's probably true for most of them.

Nor do they care about terrorist being detained.

As much as any person can be affected by any media story. These things are ulative.

They have to worry about living a normal life despite what other foreign infiltrators are trying to do by coming in to that region.

Thinking only foreigners are responsible for the violence is another fallacy.

Many of those same iraqi's would also torture their muslim counterparts if it were to help out their nation.

Or their sect, or their tribe, or their warlord.

If you were to get a ranking of what truly pisses the arabs about the US.

Abu Grahib and torture would be second to last.

Support for Israel, immorality, sexual culture, perversion, etc and beliefs would out top torture.

Which one has actually affected Iraqis in Iraq? An Abu Gharib sure had its share of sexual culture and perversion, so thanks for bumping it up the list.

[ChumpDumper]

And Palestine, and Turkey, and other places. Islam has many holy and sacred lands that they claim. Even Jerusalem

You didn't mention Iraq though. Strange.

Anyway it's like saying everyone in Italy is completely devout since they live near the Vatican.