Suns

[mabber]

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a le.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a le" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dip comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.

By the way, this Rosen article is a joke! He assesses an entire team based on one game he saw very early (almost a month ago) in the season???

I read every player assessment and only agreed with a couple. I wonder if he looks back and reads some of the tripe he writes after the season has progressed some. He's not even close on some of his player assessments.

I can't get over someone assessing a team and it's players based on one game...and this guy gets paid for this

[JMarkJohns]

I'll simply say this; stretch, don't tell me what the Suns are or aren't. I'm not blind, nor a homer in need of an "unbiased" education. If you care to get an education, review my posts on the Suns. You'll learn something and be better off for the trouble.

This whole thing is silly. The worst of it coming from opposing fans who think more of themselves than they ought to, especially with regards to what and how an opposing team is playing and what said team is or has to play to win.

If you've seen more than five Suns games THIS year, I'll be incredably surprised. My guess is you have just passing knowledge on every topic and boost its standing, not with facts or statistics, but by putting down other's takes or other posters in general.

I'd also recommend working on the quality of your posts, rather than the quan y of your postcount. You can't really have an informed opinion on everything related to the Suns, yet, without fail, post after post, reply after reply, you're right there with little to offer, doing such vehemently and excessively.

[stretch]

I'll simply say this; stretch, don't tell me what the Suns are or aren't. I'm not blind, nor a homer in need of an "unbiased" education. If you care to get an education, review my posts on the Suns. You'll learn something and be better off for the trouble.

This whole thing is silly. The worst of it coming from opposing fans who think more of themselves than they ought to, especially with regards to what and how an opposing team is playing and what said team is or has to play to win.

If you've seen more than five Suns games THIS year, I'll be incredably surprised. My guess is you have just passing knowledge on every topic and boost its standing, not with facts or statistics, but by putting down other's takes or other posters in general.

I'd also recommend working on the quality of your posts, rather than the quan y of your postcount. You can't really have an informed opinion on everything related to the Suns, yet, without fail, post after post, reply after reply, you're right there with little to offer, doing such vehemently and excessively.

ok. hows this.

the Suns are 23rd in the league in rebounding differential (-2.16), and 26th in opponent PPG (103.91). now lets go ahead and postpone this discussion of stats until the end of the season, when we have a better picture after a full season played, and then we can also assess their performance in the playoffs.

is that better?

[JMarkJohns]

You can't use PPG. I've already said why. Go back and reread. Thanks.

You don't have to wait until the end of the year, just wait more than 20-something games to write a team off. Early in the year they were getting murdered on the boards. Of course, that was before Amare had been worked back in, before Diaw had gotten back into playing shape and before this team had developed any chemistry.

The Suns have had two seasons thus far this year; pre-Amare and post-Amare. The difference is literally night and day. The current statistics won't properly bear this out.

Again, I want to see how they do against some better teams before I say they've improved, but they are no longer getting slaughtered on the boards night in, night out and have even done the slaughtering of late.

None of which, have you even acknowledged. In fact, when I said such, you either ignored r told me differently, as if your an authority on the Suns more than I.

That's laughable, keed...

[ponky]

dec. 28, that's all that matters...rack up as many wins as you want until then sunbathers, you're going down on the 28th

let me just add that i don't hate the suns the way i do other teams, i just want their streak to end already...i like a lot of their guys, esp. nash, amare and barbosa

[mavsfan1000]

I agree with most stretch says but I'm not as angry as he is. The suns are giving up over 100 points on the average so to me that is a glaring weakness either Dallas or San Antonio will exploit. Therefore the championship le hopes are not likely.

[JMarkJohns]

I agree with most stretch says but I'm not as angry as he is. The suns are giving up over 100 points on the average so to me that is a glaring weakness either Dallas or San Antonio will exploit. Therefore the championship le hopes are not likely.

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot look at the amount of points they give up an say they are bad. Style of play has more to so with this than anything.

Hollinger's stats are mostly useless, but his Point-per-100-possession stat is very telling. Suns are always in the top-15 and last year were actually in the top-5 with Kurt Thomas.

Because not everyone plays this same style, an accurate reading can only be derived from an adjusted rate.

[JMarkJohns]

This year so far...

- Possessions per game - Opposing Points per - Per-100-possession
San Antonio....93 per.................90.6 per..................97.4 per
Dallas............91 per.................93.1 per.................102.3 per
Phoenix.........103 per................103.9 per.................100.9 per

When you throw in opposing FG%, you realize you're just spoutin' off...

San Antonio 44.9%, Dallas 45.0%, Phoenix 45.3%

Essentually you're up in arms over less than a half a percent. Per-100 possessions, your Mavericks actually have a higher PPG average and are just marginally better in contesting shots.

Spurs and Mavericks are both still significantly better at rebounding, but like I said, of late, the Suns have been much, much better.

We'll see...

EDIT: I didn't factor in FTs attempted as possessions. With them...

- Possessions per game - Opposing Points per - Per-100-possession
San Antonio....104 per.................90.6 per..................87.1 per
Dallas............104 per.................93.1 per..................89.5 per
Phoenix.........115 per................103.9 per..................90.3 per

The above is based on FG attempts, FT attempts/two and turnovers forced to derive possession totals. You simply divide the Opposing PPG by the Possession total, then multiply the answer by 100.

The free throws adjusts things. I'm not sure which is how Hollinger does his and I no longer have an "INsider" account to find out. Still, we're hardly talking anything between Dallas and Phoenix this season defensively.

[mavsfan1000]

Since when did rebounding not count as a part of defense? Does it matter if the other teams scores on 2 shots instead of 1? That's why those stats you mentioned don't mean that much. They ignore the suns biggest weakness. Also teams with slower paced games tend to do better in the playoffs since most playoff games slow down.

[BUMP]

win streaks like this dont matter. theyre the 3rd best team in the West and they are capable of beating the teams theyve played. they wont meet those teams when it matters in the playoffs. they're 0-2 against Dallas and San Antonio, the two teams that have eliminated them the past two years. regular season wins mean nothing. all about the playoffs

[JMarkJohns]

Since when did rebounding not count as a part of defense? Does it matter if the other teams scores on 2 shots instead of 1? That's why those stats you mentioned don't mean that much. They ignore the suns biggest weakness. Also teams with slower paced games tend to do better in the playoffs since most playoff games slow down.

Now you're being obtuse? Gracious

Of course it matters. Reread my posts in this thread. I'm simply saying that the Suns rebounded has come quite a ways since the first 10 games of this year and that the current rebounding numbers might not be indictive of their current ability.

That's what I've been saying this entire time. I'm not arguing these points with someone who should know better. You're too smart to get caught up in their mindless game simply because you pull for the same team.

[da_suns_fan__]

JOHN HOLLINGER TEAM STATISTICS (Ordered by Defensive efficiency)

NBA: Defensive Efficiency
RNK Team Pace Ast TOR ORR DRR RR Eff FG% TS% Off Eff Def Eff
Houston 93.3 16.6 15.9 26.9 76.5 52.7 49.9 54.2 101.6 96.4
San Antonio 92.8 18.2 13.8 24.8 75.9 51.2 52.6 56.4 107.1 96.9
Chicago 96.4 17.1 14.6 28.4 77.1 51.8 50.1 54.1 103.9 98.3
Cleveland 92.6 16.5 14.2 29.8 76.4 53.3 48.9 52.8 102.3 98.8
Orlando 92.5 14.3 16.9 29.4 73.4 52.0 49.5 53.7 100.1 100.0
Minnesota 93.4 17.1 16.4 24.6 70.6 48.8 49.3 54.1 99.3 100.0
Dallas 92.4 15.6 14.1 28.0 73.8 51.8 50.3 55.4 106.3 100.6
NO/Oklahoma City 93.2 13.8 14.4 28.6 73.5 50.1 46.4 50.0 97.2 101.5
Phoenix 99.8 19.2 14.4 21.2 73.2 48.7 54.9 59.1 109.7 101.8
Charlotte 95.8 16.2 15.1 25.7 70.7 47.9 45.6 50.3 95.2 101.9
Indiana 96.2 16.7 15.8 27.9 71.3 49.1 48.0 52.8 99.8 101.9
New Jersey 94.8 17.8 14.9 26.8 75.2 51.8 49.3 54.2 102.6 102.5
Miami 94.3 15.5 14.7 25.2 75.2 50.3 47.6 52.1 98.8 102.7
Utah 95.2 18.5 15.0 32.4 75.6 54.6 50.6 55.3 106.4 102.7
Denver 102.3 17.9 14.6 31.8 69.3 51.0 50.4 55.2 106.6 102.8
Detroit 90.4 16.6 12.0 28.7 72.1 50.3 48.8 53.6 106.8 103.1
Atlanta 94.1 14.2 15.7 28.1 70.0 48.8 47.8 52.6 99.5 103.1
Toronto 96.0 16.1 12.4 23.3 73.2 47.3 47.4 52.1 101.2 103.3
L.A. Lakers 96.4 17.8 16.1 27.2 73.1 50.3 52.5 56.6 105.4 103.3
Sacramento 96.8 14.9 14.3 27.2 74.2 49.8 46.9 52.9 101.5 103.3
Memphis 92.0 14.5 15.0 25.6 71.4 47.4 47.0 52.8 99.9 103.4
L.A. Clippers 94.4 15.7 14.2 26.8 75.8 51.1 47.4 52.9 101.2 103.9
Boston 96.2 16.5 14.9 24.3 74.6 49.8 50.1 55.5 104.0 104.0
Golden State 100.9 18.1 14.1 23.8 67.4 46.0 52.6 55.8 105.5 105.1
Seattle 95.2 15.6 15.2 29.4 70.4 49.1 49.2 54.1 103.4 105.1
New York 94.9 14.6 15.5 31.4 74.1 52.5 48.6 53.2 102.4 105.4
Philadelphia 94.0 15.3 14.8 26.5 69.3 47.5 47.3 52.5 99.8 106.3
Washington 96.8 15.4 12.2 27.0 70.2 48.2 49.3 54.4 106.8 107.4
Portland 90.6 14.8 15.1 27.8 73.2 50.4 48.6 54.2 102.5 107.7
Milwaukee 95.3 17.1 14.0 26.5 67.1 46.5 50.7 54.6 104.4 109.7

The Suns and Spurs are ranked first and second in offesnive efficiency respectively, Dallas is seventh. However, the differential between first and second in THAT category is, by far, the largest between any two teams.

Offensively, No one even comes close to the Suns. THey're showing they're top ten (see above) in defense as well.

[da_suns_fan__]

Some other Hollinger rankings

True Shooting percentage:
Suns - 1st (By a RIDICULOUS Margin)
Spurs - 3rd
Mavs - 6th

Effective FG%
Suns - 1st (again by a HUGE Margin)
Spurs - 3rd
Mavs - 8th

Rebound Rate
Mavs - 6th
Spurs - 9th
Suns - 23rd

[mavsfan1000]

Rebound Rate
Mavs - 6th
Spurs - 9th
Suns - 23rd

Bingo!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

The Mavs and Spurs are still better...

[confined]

i believe it was steve kerr who said that the suns are an excellent regualar session team because its hard for teams to be ready for the suns unorthodox style of play...but once they meat a team in the playoffs their opponent has time to get into the groove of the suns style and figure out their weeknesses which are rebounding and defence...if u look at it closly the suns won all of the opening games of their series last playoffs but were nearly taken down everytime because the other team ajusted to their style of play

[The_Game]

or maybe they lost a key player for two games (raja bell)

they won in dallas in game 1, then bell went down and lost the next 2.

[mavsfan1000]

Phoenix was lucky to win game 1 against the mavs last year. The mavs choked that game. Otherwise they would've won in 5.

[JMarkJohns]

Hey, Mavs fan...

Is this Suns team the same Suns team as last year's playoffs? I seem to recall adding players like Amare, Thomas and even Rose, Banks and Jumaine Jones if they can be worked in. Last year isn't an accurate guage for this year.

[mavsfan1000]

Well I guess the suns chances just improved big time with Dirk going down. .

[RonMexico]

Basically, all that can be concluded from the 5 pages in this thread is that:

(a) We all pretty much agree that Phoenix, Dallas, and San Antonio are the top 3 in the West right now

(b) The Suns rebounding is still poor (thus far) and they give up too many second-chance opportunities

(c) The only argument Mavs fans offer to this discussion includes any combination of "rebounding" and "defense" (or "defence" in the case of the publicly-educated Texans in here), with an occasional "Dirk" thrown in for good measure

(d) Last year's Suns team, decimated by injuries to key big men and their best (at that point - only) perimeter defender, lost in a 6-game series, because they didn't have anyone who could execute in the half-court game

(e) The Suns are 0-2 vs. Dallas and SA (4-5 overall against teams with a winning record - the same mark as the Spurs), but those losses came in a back-to-back while chemistry was a huge problem for this team

(f) Mavs fans haven't watched a single Suns game since Wednesday, November 8 and base most of their opinions about the team on that game and the 2006 WCF

(g) 1 of our 3 favorite teams will represent the West in the Finals

(h) That blizzard ruined my night

(i) I want the Suns to trade a leather basketball for David Lee and see if Isiah takes it

(j) The Hollinger per-possession stat is one of the most important comparative tools among these 3 teams because of the differing styles of play

(k) Suns are second in pt differential (7 pts per game), so they have to play some kind of defense out there and anyone who can't understand that is an idiot.


That is all.

[RonMexico]

By the way, this Rosen article is a joke! He assesses an entire team based on one game he saw very early (almost a month ago) in the season???

I read every player assessment and only agreed with a couple. I wonder if he looks back and reads some of the tripe he writes after the season has progressed some. He's not even close on some of his player assessments.

I can't get over someone assessing a team and it's players based on one game...and this guy gets paid for this

I write Rosen on a daily basis ripping on his ass for everything - it's really funny that a lot of people read my link and then probably looked at his analysis of the Suns and then started making comments like "oh, the Suns are only good in the regular season... blah, blah"

Still, he agreed with me on a few things about the Mavs, so I had to throw it out there.

[RonMexico]

and you have got to be kidding me, to think that a single regular season game will determine much of anything, in terms of a teams ability to win a le. wait till the playoffs, when EVERY game matters, then we will talk.

Spurs and Mavs fans rip on the Suns all the time because they lost to both of them in the second week of the season.

To quote: "When the Suns beat the Spurs and Mavs, then you can talk to me" -Some bag

"Suns are 0-2 against the elite in the West, so they can't win the big one." -SequSpur

[Bruno]

4-5 overall against teams with a winning record - the same mark as the Spurs

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_re...w_Mrg_Div.html

[RonMexico]

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_re...w_Mrg_Div.html

Hmmm, how does that rate it? Are the opponents currently over-.500 or were they over-.500 when they played the specific games? Because I'm pretty sure the Suns have 5 losses vs. +.500 teams - at least from the stats I saw.

Either way, it shows the Suns have a winning record against +.500 teams, so that's always nice, even though they're behind the Spurs and Mavs.