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They absolutely suck at drafting Americans, but that has to change.
The Spurs suck at drafting American players. I'd trust a vote on SpursTalk on who to draft over the Spurs' scouts regarding domestic talent.
They absolutely suck at drafting Americans, but that has to change.
Don't forget other end of 1st/2nd round projects like Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, David Lee, Gilbert Arenas and the already mentioned Josh Howard who happen to contribute right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
American college players will still be projects at the end of the first round.
Paul Milsap, Leon Powe, Jordan Farmar, Alexander Johnson suggest otherwise. not polished, but they're able to contribute right away.
Sure, you can go through and pick guys at the end of past drafts that are good. You can also go through and find tons more that aren't.
My point was that every player when they are new to the NBA is a project unless they are LeBron's. I was agreeing with the poster that the Spurs should draft Americans. I just still would consider them projects - no one is a sure thing.
The Spurs will probably accidentally draft Randy Holcomb again.
every new player in the NBA is a project unless they are a Lebron or Carmelo?
there is a difference though between a project who can contribute immediately and a project who couldn't even get on the active roster, like Sanikidze for instance. Even Beno contributed immediately, and guys like Mahinmi and Sanikidze were predicted and fulfilled the promise of being years away from contributing.
and my point is that those players at the end of the draft that can play right away are much more likely to be americans than foreigners.
well, i guess we think of the word "project" differently.
difference was, that Beno was 22 when he was drafted and already had played professional basketball for 5 years, some in the most compe ive leagues in Europe (like Euroleague).
Mahinmi and Sanikidze were both 18 when they were drafted and had played little minutes in the mediocre French league.
yes, they were years away and unfortunatly they still are. noone is showing the kind of progress you would expect when hoping that they could contribute in the NBA one day.
(to be fair, Sanikidze had bad luck with his injury)
evaluating thoses drafts, it would have been so much better to go for the not so raw players, hoping to have found the European Amare Studemire and the second comming of AK47.
the Sanikidze pick could have been Ariza (the pick was prearanged, Hawks would have picked Ariza if Spurs ask them), the Mahinmi pick could have been Lee. at least Thomas watches the domestic college players.
Ariza and Lee were able to play with some impact from the beginning.
You can take every team in the league and say they have drafted player X while player Y was available with player Y >>>>>>>>> player X. I'ts a wrong way to judge a draft.
Bottomline is that Spurs have been very successful at drafting foreigner. Parker, Ginobili, Scola, Javtokas are all great picks. Udrih is an ok pick given who was available in this draft and it's still too soon for Sanikidze and Mahinmi.
And the "they should have drafted solid ncaa players instead of Mahinmi and Sanikidze" is quite stupid :
- Don't forget that Ariza was a freshman : he wasn't at all a ready to contribute player. 10 seniors have been drafted after Sanikidze and only one is still in the league : Pape Sow.
- Spurs have drafted Mahinmi just after the championship. They were really deep at PF/C with Duncan, Rasho, Nazr, Horry and Scola (Spurs really though that he will sign with them at that moment). Drafting a ready to go PF/C would have make few sense because they needn't immediate help. They have chosen the player with a lot of upside and it was the logical choice even that with hindsight you can say that it was a mistake .
I agree about Mahinmi because the Spurs only had one pick and no apparent need. I'm just saying that the Spurs have OBVIOUS needs for instant contributors, so that should be the target of at least their first rounder in 2007. , I think they should try to package future picks and trade up if they think they can get a good/great player.
we're in agreement, i've already posted the same. But there's nothing wrong with comparing drafts and positions. Nobody leaps to the defense of the Celtics, the Magic and the Jazz front offices for passing on Tony Parker for guys like Jeryl Sasser.You can take every team in the league and say they have drafted player X while player Y was available with player Y >>>>>>>>> player X. I'ts a wrong way to judge a draft.
what about domestic product?Bottomline is that Spurs have been very successful at drafting foreigner.
I think there are two arguements in this thread which are getting mingled and confused:Don't forget that Ariza was a freshman : he wasn't at all a ready to contribute player.
1. scouting of US based talent
2. drafting of 'NBA-ready' players, foreign or otherwise (like Beno, who was thought to be ready, and proved it)
Besides, Ariza played 80 games his rookie year, averaged 17 minutes a game, scored double figures 18 times, 14 games of at least 5 rebounds, and 19 games of at least 2 steals.
For myself, I've already posted that I think it's too soon for me to look at Mahinmi in comparison to his draft and his impact.
But with Sanikidze it's been two and a half years, and he's a project with little to show for it. In less time, Mahinmi has an arc of becoming a starter, then moving on to a bigger stage and a Euroleague team where he was expected to start, though it didn't work out as hoped. Sanikidze doesn't have that, injuries or not.
It's sad when reasoned observation and comments on Sanikidze and his status are termed 'quite stupid'.
On a ty, ty team. No way he would've gotten that on a championship team. I have no doubt in my mind that the PT helped Ariza more than not playing with the Spurs woud have.Besides, Ariza played 80 games his rookie year, averaged 17 minutes a game, scored double figures 18 times, 14 games of at least 5 rebounds, and 19 games of at least 2 steals.
The simple fact is that players taken as low as the Spurs picks are always crap shoots no matter what. The Spurs take long term gambles in the second round because they have the biggest potential payoff with no real penalty if they don't work out.
So either Ariza was ready to contribute or he wasn't. Even the worst teams in NBA history have guys glued to the bench.
He was ready to contribute to the worst team in the league and got better with the playing time.
The simple fact is the Spurs' front office cannot compare to Isiah Thomas when it comes to pegging young talent. In this Thomas is practically unrivalled. The man is a fiend for the bad financial move, but he has consistently found value wherever his picks are. He picked up Ariza with a second round pick, had a fantastic draft with Lee, Robinson, and Frye last year, this year got Balkman, who is a hustling maniac, and Collins, who may not pan out, but is at least defensive minded. Not only those picks, but he plucked Jackie Butler out of the NBDL and nabbed Ime Udoka over the summer, although he wasn't able to keep him. Udoka is a player the Spurs would love to have.
The point of all this is, for some teams and some general managers, their picks are crap shoots. The Spurs, when drafting domestic talent, are betting blind so much that they practically refused to draft American players for a while. Fortunately they've made up for it, somewhat by their foreign scouting and, moreso, by having Duncan and making shrewd personnel decisions (erring at times for caution).
But drafting... some guys are rolling blind, some guys are winning the game. For his many other faults, Isiah is aces at scouting. The Spurs basically suck.
So hire him as a scout when he gets fired.The simple fact is the Spurs' front office cannot compare to Isiah Thomas when it comes to pegging young talent.
I'll be the first to raise that banner.
My point is that a pick isn't bad if one better player was available. A pick is bad when you look at players drafted after and that most of them are better.
Romain Sato ?
You have to judge if a player is nba ready just before the draft and not after one year.
If Spurs wanted a nba ready player, they wouldn't have picked Ariza.
Since he has been drafted Sanikidze :
- has spend one year in France where he has averaged 5 pts/3 rbds. That's poor stats but he was very young. As an example, Nicolas Batum (who has the same age that Sanikidze in 04-05 and who is a future lottery pick) averages 3 pts/ 2 rbds in french league.
- hasn't played in 05-06 because of an injury.
- has played well with Georgia youth team and senior team last summer while he hasn't played for one year. Youth compe ion level was very low but the senior one was higher.
- Has missed the whole training camp and the start of the season with estudiantes because of Georgia NT and a visa problem. He hasn't played a lot but it's quite understandable and he seems to play more lately with some success.
Even if he will maybe be a bust, I find that it's still too soon to give up on him.
That's Three of us who like the idea.
BTW. To the guy who said Ponkrashov is huge...
YEP!
6'7" and 205 at last measurements.
He can play 1 2 or 3 - versatility in the spots we could use some. He really does have the skills. His athleticism might be a problem, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's good enought. He's got BBall IQ.
The size is a real asset for us - it allows him to play with an undersized partner at the 2 (or as the 2 with another 1). For example in 2 PG sets with TP, like we have used Beno, without giving up a defensive mismatch with the opposing SG (both Beno and Tony are really undersized to defend SG's - they get bullied a bit).
The kid isn't 16 yrs old anymore. There are guys in college vastly outplaying Sanikidze right now. Tons of guys. Hurt... visa problems... who cares a whip? If he was worth it, they could have fixed the Visa problems. Countries do all kinds of shenanigans to get players on teams. Just ask 'Turkoglu'.
I don't regard it as giving up on Sanikidze. Only as being realistic with him as a player right now and in the short term with the Spurs plans (through the 07 season for example).Even if he will maybe be a bust, I find that it's still too soon to give up on him.
Even if he never plays, Bust is a strong word for a second round pick who are usually risks anyway, very few players are regarded as 'sure-things' in the second, usually players who happen to slide out of the first round.
But I have no problem in looking at 2 small forward prospects who were born within 10 months of each other and are both 6'8", drafted one after the other, and examining the two. But some people do, for whatever reason.
Does their order in the draft have anything to do with domestic scouting quality, or just the usual roll of the dice teams take in a draft? As I posted before, a reasonable arguement could be made for the former based on the history. Is it a divine truth? No, just an arguement with some do ented facts to go with it.
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The timeline for Sanikidze I think you would have to admit does not inspire the same confidence one would get from a similar timeline of Mahinmi.
Spurs should have drafted Kevin Durant.
Sanikidze should have played better when he was injured and when he was at 1000 miles away from his team.
Visa problems are quite usual in Europe. If I remember well, Sanikidze has lost something like 3 weeks with estudiantes because of that.
We drafted Ian in the first round. Manu, Giricek, Scola and Javtokas have really spoiled people. Expecting home runs with every crappy draft pick is just unrealistic.
I think what's getting people het up is that the 2007 draft looks a lot like a homerun draft. Not every player will be great, or even serviceable, but it looks nice and juicy. What happened with the last homerun draft in 2003? We punted. A lot of us are concerned we'll wind up punting again. Not literally - it's hard to get rid of 3 picks - but the equivalent. I'm half expecting a slew of foreign players again, which might as well kill us.
If we're relying on low draft picks, we're already dead.
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